Thematically I interpret being delayed as follows - a loss of ones bearings, being disoriented, needing to take time to establish your orientation. This fits whether the cause is being sucked through a gate which opened on top of you unexpectedly or waking up in a daze in hospital/asylum after a run with something nasty. Basically “Where the hell am I?! and what just happened?!”

From a rules point of view I think the key phrase is “Delayed investigators do not move during the Movement Phase, and they receive no movement points.” The logic of this statement implies that a delayed investigator still gets a movement phase. The actions within this movement phase are restricted to simply standing up i.e. standing up is thematically the equivalent of getting your bearings and establishing where you are.

Thus why should investigators not be able to do that activity of colleting themselves or figuring out their orientation, and then decide to cast a spell (such as find gate) or do any other activity that has a Movement Phase activation window.

I think this works thematically with the example I kicked this thread off with.

Mythos Phase IV - gate opens on Investigator, investigator sucked through to other world and delayed - “Where the hell am I”.

Movement Phase I (other world movement) - Investigator stands up (i.e. gets bearings) - “Oh God, I’m in the Abyss.” Time to cast find gate and high tale it outta here!

Spells like Find Gate are specifically meant to cut short The Other World experience. I.E. they are meant to break the minimum number of Other World encounters condition - even if brings the number of encounters down to zero.

That’s the one problem you get with games like AH. The mechanics rely on setting up a large number of conditions to govern the behaviour of the game and the players. The fun comes when you start introducing exceptions to the conditions or direct contradictions to the conditions. It allows you to play with the mechanics of the game in a fun way but a slight misstep can lead to irresistible force meets immovable object.

snowedunder said:

I agree that Find Gate is specifcally meant to cut the duration you spend in the OW but I don't agree that it is meant to take you down to Zero.  (Not even the Naacal Key would work since it would delay you once a gate opens and put us back in our same predicament.)

Again, whether you want to chalk this up to theme or mechanics, the intent of Find Gate is to purposely go to an open gate in Phase 2, move through said gate in Phase 3 and have an encounter in Phase 4.  Then on Phase 2 of the next turn you return by casting the spell.  Mechanically, the intent is to have at least 1 encounter in the OW.  Thematically, you know what you are doing, you are aware of your surroundings and it still takes time to get back.

When you are allowed to use Find Gate in the illustration above - getting drawn through in Phase 5 - then you circumvent both the mechanical and thematic intents of the Spell.  Mechanically, you are saying that even though I have been punished and the normal usage of the spell is to spend at least 1 encounter in the OW, I don't have to do that now.  Thematically, I have no clue why I am here or how I got here but I know enough to get back and have enough knowledge of this place to even close the gate.

Neither of these arguments make any sense.  I would like this argument cleared up.  i have tried contacting kevin and JR about this ruling.  Unfortunately, they keep promising me to get to the open rule questions soon but haven't yet.  Now that Android is out and the holidays are closing down, perhaps we can get an answer from them soon.

ColtsFan76 said:

No one is saying Find Gate is "meant" to take you down to zero OW encounters.  Mearly that it reduces (or subtracts one to be precise) the number of OW encounters.  As a function of the rules and design of the card the "quirk" arises where if you are lucky enough to have the spell, lore and sanity to cast it at the right time you can get in and out of another world without encountering anything there.  A by product of introducing a condition breaking card without perhaps thinking about the full specturm of circumstance it may affect.  Maybe a quirk, maybe not really the full intent the designers meant, who knows, only KW or RL can answer.  But as it stands, its a damn good powerful spell and as luck plays a large part in AH, if a player ends up in those specific cirumstance I see no rule or ruling in publication to prevent him from playing the card.

As to the second point - You are making assumptions about the mechanic and thematic intent of the spell that can't be quantified.  As I don't have Kevin Wilson on the end of the phone, all I can go on is a logical appraisal of the rule book and a logical appraisal of the card text.  seems to fit to me. 

Normal usage of the spell is transport you back to Arkham whenever you play it - it has no fixed relationship to the specific number of OW encounters you face. 

Who says being delayed is a "punishment"?  Being delayed, being sucked through a gate during a mythos phase or any or the other many and myriad things that can happen to you during a game of AH can be construed as either a good or bad thing depending on the surrounding cirmumstance in the game. 

I already addressed my take on how the theme works in my last post, merely contradicting it doesn't make it invalid - standing up from being delayed represents figuring where you are, or gathering your wits, or whatever euphamism you care to use.  So you do have a clue as to where you are and you probably figured out how you got there and have sufficiant wit to cast a spell to get you back.

If there is another expansion and KW and Rl want to plug this hole they'll have to issue some replacement cards.  As it stands still nothing to convince me that using the card is thematically or mechanically wrong given the current rules.

snowedunder said:

It is a punishment because time is of the essence in this game.  You have a limited amount of turns before you can win or send it into the Final Battle.  Any time you can't do what you want to do but be subjected to the same encounter is a problem.  Being delayed goes beyond just having a gate open on you.  It can also be the result of encounters and is a frequent one in the OW encounters.  I have lost many a game that was well in hand because a few ill-timed "you are delayed" cards popped up.

The only advantage of being delayed in the OW is if you somehow get transported there without a gate, or a gate closes while you are still out there.  Then a delay is welcome because it might mean getting a new gate open before getting sent to LiTaS.  And since the game is sentient, it doesn't allow this to happen when you really need it to.

I think it is important to note that Fnd Gate normally allows you to move after returning from Arkham. Usually you would try to close the gate bcause you have an explored token, but if someon with more clues is coming out of the same gate that turn or you don't want to close the gate without sealing or whatever you do have the option of shifting back to Arkham with the spell and then moving across town to do something else.

So a delayed effect is not completely impotent when you have Find Gate. It's just mostly impotent because the thing that you probably want to do (go back to Arkham and then voluntarily sit on the gate until Encounters phase so that you can attempt to close) is something that you are allowed to do. But yes, Find Gate bypasses the normal turn order and vastly shortens your time in the Outworld.

From a purely thematic standpoint, most of the time you are delayed in another world is because dark mists or twisting passages cause you to get lost. But casting Find Gate would presumably negate that.

Now let's talk about the other spells that work during Movement.

• Call Friend: You don't even move when you cast this spell. In fact, the other guy doesn't get his movement either. The other player not moving is a prerequisite for you casting the spell. You can cast it when you are delayed (to get a friend into the locked library with you), and you can cast it on a delayed friend (to get them out of a locked library). It teleports people out of The Abyss, no reason that it wouldn't help in this case.
• Summon Shantak: While nothing prevents you from casting this spell, its primary effect is to give you extra movement points that you can't spend. But its secondary effect of ignoring monsters during the movement phase may come in handy.
• Vision Quest: Again, this spell doesn't move anything. It just takes Clues from your neighborhood and puts them into your pants. Of course you can cast this.

In conclusion, there is no reason from the literal rules or from the thematics of the game to believe that a delayed investigator cannot activate the Find Gate spell. Honestly Coltsfan, I expect better from you in your rules lawyering.

-Frank

Frank said:

Eh, what? If you start a turn in the OW, you don't receive any movement points, so you can't move after returning to Arkham via FG (nor can you use Tomes, etc.). Thus FG or no, there is no difference in when an investigator can move away from the gate, next movement phase.

Dam said:

This is not true. Technically what happens is that you are allowed to take one of two different movement actions, and you take that action based on where you are when you take it. Since Find Gate is usable any time during the Movement Phase it can be used before you take your movement action and then you'll be in Arkham and able to take Arkham movement.

During the Movement Phase, each player takes one of
the following two movement actions, depending on
whether his investigator is in Arkham or an Other World
(see “Game Board Breakdown,” page 21):

Arkham movement
or
OtherWorlds movement

Now as it happens, taking the "Arkham Movement Action" is the thing that actually gives you Movement Points, according to page 5 of the rulebook. And thus it is that this is probably what things like delayed and the White Ship are alking about. You aren't allowed to take either of those two actions. But you still get a movement phase in either case, so you can still use things that are used during the movement phase.

-Frank

I guess that would be fine and dandy, but then you would have to ignore this part on page 8:

"If an investigator is in an Other World at the beginning of
the Movement Phase, he receives no movement points."

Frank said:

Whoa.  That's...you...where...

Never mind.  Not worth it.

Dam said:

That is contingent on your investigator choosing to take the Other Worlds movement action. If Find Gate takes place before choosing the action, it isn't relevant.

Yea, regardless of my personal thoughts on this debate, i think that was kinda rude to insult coltsfan frank. He has always tried to be so helpful to others by monitoring topics and giving advice.

I think we should try and be polite in our debates

Elric91 said:

Huh? Wasn't that just a friendly jab?

Kobu said:

Friendly jabs are usually between friends.

As I said when I first posted, I figure I am in the minority here.  This is just a discussion.  We just have to agree to disagree until an official ruling is made.  My position is clear and I don't think I have anything more to add.