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CoC Rules Discussion
The place to discuss rules, clarifications, bannings and erratta.
Moderator: FFG NateFFGAntonFFGHataffgjafferffgjoshFFGStuartFFG_IanGeckoGood_TravelerThe Spaniard Topics: 726 | Posts: 4730
Some questions from another new player
Published on 16 July 2012 - 03:30:47
Page 2 of 3 (32 messages) « First page... 1 2 3 ...Last page »
Reply #16 | Published on 18 July 2012 - 16:33:29

 You are correct in what you are saying, but I may not be making the distinction clearly, and the FAQ is a bit weird in the regard. The FAQ talks about actions and actions, but makes a distinction between them when one is a player action and the other is an Action: effect. Triggered effects and effects just triggered are synonymous and both refer to the type of effect, not any effect that has a trigger (which could be argued to include the reward/penalty for winning/losing a struggle).

Damon should probably be consulted for specifics or made aware so the wording is made more explicit one way or another.

"Crumbs, DM!"

Reply #17 | Published on 19 July 2012 - 04:03:48

HilariousPete said:

Yes, I know this, but I also know the Golden Rule:

If the rules text of a card contradicts the text of this rulebook, the
rules on the card take precedence (with a few exceptions, as listed
in the rules).

You have to be careful about trying to invoke the Golden Rule. It can only be applied if the card text explicitly contradicts a rule. In the case of Ward Phillips, this means his ability would have to say that it allows you to cancel passive effects.

Having said that, I doubt we will ever see such a card. There's a reason the rules use the word 'cannot'. Imho, the implications of being able to cancel passive abilities would be too complicated for the rules to handle because there are so many different types of passive abilities.

Without signature

Reply #18 | Published on 19 July 2012 - 10:58:03

                               ^^^THIS +1^^^

"Crumbs, DM!"

Reply #19 | Published on 19 July 2012 - 12:05:19

I just got a super-fast reply from Damon. You were right Penfold, passives are only "initiated" and "resolved". He will include this in the next update of the FAQ.

@jhaelen: I think your reasoning is similar to my "there is no direct contradiction between Ward's text and the rules" reasoning. Which I did dismiss at first ;-)  

Greetings,

Pete

Reply #20 | Published on 29 July 2012 - 07:52:53

Another question did come up: If the Guardian Pillar's ability is used to transform him into a character and he is committed to a story, may Binding or Obscure Linguist remove his icons?

I think so, because they are printed on the card. But I'm not sure, because the icons are part of an effect (and aren't located at the usual position of icons), and the Guardian Pillar is a character only because of this card effect.

Reply #21 | Published on 30 July 2012 - 02:49:12

HilariousPete said:

Another question did come up: If the Guardian Pillar's ability is used to transform him into a character and he is committed to a story, may Binding or Obscure Linguist remove his icons?

I think so, because they are printed on the card. But I'm not sure, because the icons are part of an effect (and aren't located at the usual position of icons), and the Guardian Pillar is a character only because of this card effect.

Well, icons in the text box don't count as printed icons. Still, I'm not sure if any of its icons are supposed to count as printed icons. E.g. the Doppelgänger's icons received from copying a character's icons actually count as printed, even though they aren't on the card itself. But then, again, the Doppelgänger is a special snowflake, anyway.

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Reply #22 | Published on 30 July 2012 - 07:06:04

Ok, then I play it that Binding and likewise effects don't work on Guardian Pillar. Thx for answering!

Reply #23 | Published on 30 July 2012 - 08:25:50
7
2

 I think they do. Pillars effect creates "character with those icons". I'd say they are its printed icons as its the normal way character has icons.

FAQ on printed doesn't address this issue IMO, but if anything i would say it would suggest they're not printed.

Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. The first principle is that you must not fool yourself,you are the easiest person to fool.
R.Feynman

Reply #24 | Published on 30 July 2012 - 10:52:34

I'll submit a rule question and post the results here.

Reply #25 | Published on 30 July 2012 - 12:05:17

Again a really fast answer from FFG, thx to Mr. Stone! Answer (in my own words, since I read somewhere that FFG doesn't like direct quotations): No, Guardian Pillar as a character doesn't contain the usual features of a character card. The icons and skill are gained, not printed. (Subtype+cost remains.)

Reply #26 | Published on 31 July 2012 - 02:18:48

Thanks for getting an official answer!

Where did you read that FFG doesn't like direct quotations? Quoting the original answers to rules questions make a lot of sense. It's too easy to omit an important detail otherwise, leading to more confusion. At least in the context of rules questions I don't see why a quote would be discouraged. It's basically nothing but a preview of a new FAQ entry.

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Reply #27 | Published on 31 July 2012 - 03:35:22

I read it here. I also think direct quotations would be better for us players because of the points you stated. But perhaps FFG doesn't want to create too much situations where a designer's decision has to be revised later on in the next FAQ, so I'll just adhere to that.

Reply #28 | Published on 31 July 2012 - 08:33:52
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2

I think maybe that post was revealing too much about designers preferences rather than actual rulings.

Rephrasing rulings seems like a really terrible idea in general.

Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. The first principle is that you must not fool yourself,you are the easiest person to fool.
R.Feynman

Reply #29 | Published on 31 July 2012 - 13:01:58

 Yeah, I just decided to completely ignore the warning as it was nonsensical in every possible way and I had not violated any rules posted on this forum nor in the agreement when I joined the forum a couple years ago. I suspect the problem was the quote I gave was not in full context and someone got their undies in a bind over it because it gave the reasoning behind a ruling rather than just the ruling. You shouldn't let someone bully you into conforming to how they think you should act when you haven't done anything wrong. Until such a time as that is an official policy I'm going to carry on the way everyone else has since I've been a member and a lurker on these here forums.

"Crumbs, DM!"

Reply #30 | Published on 01 August 2012 - 02:50:57

HilariousPete said:

I read it here. I also think direct quotations would be better for us players because of the points you stated. But perhaps FFG doesn't want to create too much situations where a designer's decision has to be revised later on in the next FAQ, so I'll just adhere to that.

Well, Penfold already gaves his view on this.

I'd like to add that moderators don't necessarily represent FFG's official opinion; on many forums they aren't even connected with the company. Instead they are more like dedicated fans and can thus be a bit overzealous.

The context is also important: In the thread you've linked, Damon basically stated he hadn't made a final decision, yet. So, it's understandable he didn't want something he said to be stated as a 'fact', particularly if quoted without the complete context.

Rule reversals are usually bad for a game, so, in a case where a ruling is 'temporary', as in: 'I need to carefully think about the implications of ruling it one way or another, but this is how I'd judge it, right now', not posting it right away might be prudent.

 

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