AUCodeMonkey said:

I've been on and off with him vs. Dreamlands Fanatic.  While Stalking Hound is the better character and can come from the discard pile, you have more control over Fanatic's condition which means he's a bit more reliable.  They're both very nice though.  Really, I think I like a mix of both just in case.

I'd prefer if more of these type of cards were restricted to their own factions though instead of being so easy to splash into any deck…  and that goes for Snow Graves as well.

.Zephyr. said:

Not to be an overtly huge ass, but it's not.

It requires 2 cards - a 5 and 2 cost - to be devastating. You need 3-4 turns to get a domain with 5 resources on it, plus another domain with 2 resources on it. PLUS you have to have other characters out prior to Hydra in order for the Temple to be useful. It takes too long to set up, and requires too many cards to be reliable.

I can force an opponent to sacrifice something by paying 2 as well: A Single Glimpse. I can do it again, depending on skill levels, with Calling Down The Ancients. I can destroy Hydra with a Short Fuse, a mainstay in Agency decks. If I'm playing Hastur, I can easily drive Hydra insane. If I'm playing Cthulhu and/or Shub and/or Agency, I can destroy your Temple easily.

Even more efficient than either A Single Glimpse or Temple/Hydra is a Many-Angled Thing. Make your opponent sacrifice something and I get a creature out of it? Sign me up 3 times.

Plus, my Marcus Jamberg -> Dimensional Rift cheese deck makes yours completely useless, and I can act it out, in its entirety, with regularity between turns 2 and 4, which we've established is usually before you could get your Temple/Hydra combo going.

I think the frustration you're experiencing with Serpents has more to do with their ease of use (and deck design) than their perceived imbalance.  I've found that effective Serpents and Deep One decks are simple to slap together and straightforward to play.  A relative novice can build a competitive mono-Cthulhu deck in a few minutes and be successful, giving rise to threads like this one.

Also, all of the Serpent cards synergize nicely with each other and the various Cthulhu destruction effects (e.g. Sacrificial Offerings, Temple of R'lyeh), so triggering combos is easy to do.  This may make them seem more powerful than they are.

However, such decks have limitations.  While they can chew through certain opponents, they struggle when confronted with non-standard deck designs.  Our regional championship is a good example.  We had 3 mono-Cthulhu decks in our tournament, with 2 making it to the quarterfinals.  One didn't get past that point, and the other lost in the semis.

When I first started playing CoC, I remember feeling the same way about many Agency cards.  Now that I have some time under my belt, I realize that straight-up destruction isn't always the key to winning.

Runix said:

Well, I wont deny that Cthulhu is in no need of help in overall efficiency of their cards right now. I am with you there.

But you do have to keep in mind that this is an asymmetrical game. If I have learned anything from my time playing M:tG is that power levels will always fluctuate. Such games will never be as balanced as we or the designers would like. Its simply the fundamental nature of the game.

If we are not complaining about Cthulhu this month, we will complain about the OP of Nerds next, or the OP of H.O.S.T. after that, etc. It's cyclical.

You just have to learn how to deal with the strongest archetypes in your meta with what you have available. If that doesn't work, then locally ban some cards.

Yipe said:

I don't think it's mono-Cthulhu that will cause the problems.  I think it's dual-faction decks that are long on Serpents but have some help from another faction  to offset Cthulhu weaknesses that will dominate:  e.g., 40 Cthulhu with lots of Serpents, and 10 from Hastur (Power Drain, Stygian Eye, Byakhee Attack, etc.), for a rock solid deck that can deal with just about any other strategy, and with little skill at that, as it virtually plays itself.  Here's hoping I'm wrong.

I echo all the concerns by posters above me on power creep.  I really enjoy seeing how new cards expand the game, but right now it seems that the developers may be slipping into an unfortunate cycle of trying to deal with power creep by adding more power.  The imbalance between monster and investigator factions is one area that clearly needs attention, but if the preview cards to Seekers of Knowledge are any indication, it would appear that the developers are going to try to address that by handing out Willpower and Toughness like candy to the investigator factions.  That could actually make things worse, as then the monster factions will need new and super-powered cards just to catch up.  Is a redesign of some of the more problematic cards in circulation completely out of the question?

At any rate, if there's anything good to come out of this, it's that the Serpents are a veritable test of fire for my existing decks.  I've already revamped my decks several times just to try to figure out how to deal with them.

And now that I'm thinking of it, this may be the chance to finally put that Canopic Jar to use - the Serpents can't hear the Sibilant Cry when they're trapped inside that!

serpent and/or deep one decks are like the simple MtG red burn decks. they're cheap and easy to construct. pretty much foolproof to pilot and therefore quite a popular choice in most metas, especially when new sets of cards would come out. for the first few weeks or so, red decks would do really well at friday night magic or in tournaments, but then as people got more time with the cards, playing a red deck became more of a liability as players built better and better decks, based on control, combo, milling, etc. strategies.

now, i've had my clock cleaned completely by deep one and snakey decks. Yipe put a particularly brutal beating on me last weekend. but you just roll with it. beat em or join em… but bitching about em is fruitless. there will ALWAYS be cheap burn decks.

just a quick thought: to beat this type of deck, you usually have to survive the initial onslaught(s)(s)(s). if you can, and if you manage to stabilize, you can gain a foothold in the game that burn decks will find difficult to overcome. their strength is really the early game. so plan for early defense and then kick ass later.

piszcadz said:

You and I only played that one game on Saturday, amigo.  Before that, it's been a while.  We need to get together for some more CoC action.  I'll be tied up for the next 2 weeks, but I should be free starting around the 7th of August.

And to bring this somewhat back on topic…

My Serpents/Deep One deck was easy to build and easy to play - a prime example of Cthulhu's direct approach.

piszcadz is right that it must establish early control to keep my opponent off rhythm and destroy characters as they hit the table.  In this way, it's similar to a rush deck.  If I can't gain control soon enough then the holes start to show, especially if my opponent can attack my characters or the stories in a non-standard way.

I'm toying with the idea of cutting out the Deep Ones and throwing in Miskatonic (for Museum Curator, Dr. Carson and his Treatment) as well as Arkham Asylum.  I think that could make the Temple of R'lyeh + Uroborus combo particularly amusing.

AUCodeMonkey said:

The most effective way to do this is to combine it with Deep One Rising (so you need yet another card….) in which case every time you bring him back you get to choose and destroy a character.

 DOR only works when you play him from your hand. Otherwise, I'd be fully abusing that card right now…

 Can you give us the list that is giving you issues?

AUCodeMonkey said:

i abuse my cards all the time. i love playing with my deck.

AUCodeMonkey said:

So it isn't considered playing if it enters play from your discard pile?  I didn't know that…

Ah, I found it in the FAQ:

"To “Play” a card is to pay all costs and
follow all play restrictions in order to
bring the card into play from a player’s
hand. Card effects that take place when
a card is played do not work if the card
entered play through any alternate way."

Right, this is the difference between playing a card and entering play.  Entering play effects work no matter how it got there.

piszcadz said:

I agree.  Good thing I have card sleeves, or my three copies of Master of the Myths would have been worn through by now (although thinking about it, Black Dog may be a better defense against most of the Serpents).  Right now my strategy against Serpents is, more or less, to use bouncing blockers or chump blockers to keep them at bay until my more powerful characters can get on the board to put an end to the nonsense.

Cheap, high-skilled characters + Parallel Universe also will hold them off. Dampen Light will increase the cost for them to rush out after you. Panic is another effective means. Don't get discouraged; I will reiterate that Serpents are not that powerful, and when you figure a way to deal with them, you will learn more about better deckbuilding.