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Star Warsâ„¢: The Card Game - Rules Questions
This is the place to study and discuss the ways of the Forceâ„¢
Moderator: FFGMarkFFGStuartFFG_Ian Topics: 238 | Posts: 1602
Trench Run
Published on 10 January 2013 - 16:48:00
Page 12 of 12 (172 messages) « First page... 9 10 11 12
Reply #166 | Published on 13 February 2013 - 07:10:05

DailyRich said:

It seems pretty simple to me.  To resolve blast icons, you have to do damage to an objective.  To resolve unopposed damage, you have to do damage to an objective.  But resolving card effects doesn't always damage an objective.  The act of resolving them always takes place, but the outcome is different based on the card text.

And "framework events" are on p. 30 of the rulebook, if that's the term you're saying was made up for the FAQ.

No, the made-up term for this answer is "framework game effects."  To be clear, I have no problem with them creating new terms to tighten up rules, but I would like them to define those terms.

Reply #167 | Published on 13 February 2013 - 08:48:20

Framework effects = effects that happen by framework event mechanics.  These effects happen as outlined in the rule book as it is what happens in the framework of the rules in how you play the game.  These do not originate from cards or card text directly.
Examples: Unopposed bonus, Balance phase outcomes(Light side damages objective because on their turn the balance of the force is light; Dark side advances Deathstar dial 1 point and 1 more point if balance of the force is dark), Refresh phase removal of focus tokens, Resolving combat icons in engagements, engaging the objective, Drawing cards via the draw phase framework, Winning edge battles, etc.

Card effects = effects coming from the text provided by a card.  These effects originate from text on a card.
Examples: Card Abilities(outlined on pages 24-25 in rule book) and Fate card effects.  A card telling you to add to the deathstar dial, a card telling you to remove focus tokens, a card telling you to place damage tokens, etc.

Pretending you don't have any cards, if you read the rule book and the rule book tells you to do something specific(to cards, to tokens, to the opponent, to your own hand, etc) because of the phase you're in, because of cards that are in play, or because of some kind of an outcome, then it's a framework effect. 
If a card's text itself tells you to do something specific(to cards, to tokens, to the opponent, to your own hand, etc) because of the phase you're in, because of cards that are in play, or because of some kind of an outcome or trigger, then it's a card effect.

I hope the above helps.

EDIT: I have to admit that I am speaking of the above with my experience from AGoT LCG and how card effects are defined and distinguished from game effects(aka framework effects).  Seeing how the LoTR LCG has followed similar rulings with how some rulings are made in AGoT LCG, I presume that they will rule similar in this one.  Maybe it is a bad presumption, but it is a form of a precedent in my opinion(which all of the above is, however that is also how I interpret the rules).

Without Signature

Reply #168 | Published on 13 February 2013 - 11:44:30

Bomb said:

Framework effects = effects that happen by framework event mechanics.  These effects happen as outlined in the rule book as it is what happens in the framework of the rules in how you play the game.  These do not originate from cards or card text directly.
Examples: Unopposed bonus, Balance phase outcomes(Light side damages objective because on their turn the balance of the force is light; Dark side advances Deathstar dial 1 point and 1 more point if balance of the force is dark), Refresh phase removal of focus tokens, Resolving combat icons in engagements, engaging the objective, Drawing cards via the draw phase framework, Winning edge battles, etc.

Card effects = effects coming from the text provided by a card.  These effects originate from text on a card.
Examples: Card Abilities(outlined on pages 24-25 in rule book) and Fate card effects.  A card telling you to add to the deathstar dial, a card telling you to remove focus tokens, a card telling you to place damage tokens, etc.

Pretending you don't have any cards, if you read the rule book and the rule book tells you to do something specific(to cards, to tokens, to the opponent, to your own hand, etc) because of the phase you're in, because of cards that are in play, or because of some kind of an outcome, then it's a framework effect. 
If a card's text itself tells you to do something specific(to cards, to tokens, to the opponent, to your own hand, etc) because of the phase you're in, because of cards that are in play, or because of some kind of an outcome or trigger, then it's a card effect.

I hope the above helps.

EDIT: I have to admit that I am speaking of the above with my experience from AGoT LCG and how card effects are defined and distinguished from game effects(aka framework effects).  Seeing how the LoTR LCG has followed similar rulings with how some rulings are made in AGoT LCG, I presume that they will rule similar in this one.  Maybe it is a bad presumption, but it is a form of a precedent in my opinion(which all of the above is, however that is also how I interpret the rules).

The problem with your definition at this time (though I suspect it will end up being mostly correct) is that it's completely infered from a couple of data points.  We know explicitly from the FAQ that the unopposed bonus and combat icons are considered "framework game effects."  We can pretty easily infer that the effects of Fate cards are considered "card effects."  What we don't have yet is a definition of either of those terms to sort all other effects.  While data points are enough to figure out how to play Trench Run correctly, it isn't very satisfactory from an understanding the rules standpoint because there's no way to sort any new situations if they come up in the future.  For instance, if the result of resolving combat icons (which is not itself a framework event) is a framework game effect because combat icons are defined in the rule book instead of on the card itself, perhaps some keyword abilities on cards would be considered framework game effects and not card effects.  Maybe all of them will.  Maybe none of them.  Maybe only if they're being used during a framework event?  That's why definitions are important.

Reply #169 | Published on 13 February 2013 - 12:15:58

I just have to say that I'm glad you got in touch with FFG(Nate French specifically) to give them feedback on how to improve the FAQ in a near future update.

Without Signature

Reply #170 | Published on 13 February 2013 - 12:23:01

Bomb said:

I just have to say that I'm glad you got in touch with FFG(Nate French specifically) to give them feedback on how to improve the FAQ in a near future update.

I've had a couple of discussions with him via the Rules Question link on the bottom of the forums today.  He has been very helpful in explaining the 2 rulings I didn't understand (Trench Run and Secret of Yavin 4) and mentioned that further clarification will be out with the next update of the FAQ to better define a few terms.  Hopefully it will be out with the tournament rules.

Reply #171 | Published on 14 February 2013 - 16:02:10

I'm glad I'm not the only one confused by the FAQ response.

So just to be clear, according to the FAQ:  the only way to damage the Death Star dial with Trench Run is to apply blast icons from attackers and/or unopposed damage.  All other effects from cards are invalid.  Correct?

Reply #172 | Published on 14 February 2013 - 16:47:59

TonganJedi said:

I'm glad I'm not the only one confused by the FAQ response.

So just to be clear, according to the FAQ:  the only way to damage the Death Star dial with Trench Run is to apply blast icons from attackers and/or unopposed damage.  All other effects from cards are invalid.  Correct?

 

Yes, exactly what it says.

FAQ Page 7:

When engaged as an objective, the Death Star dial may be damaged by framework game effects only. This is limited to º (blast) damage and unopposed damage.

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