AluminiumWolf said:

Because dying permanently due to lag or a bugged spawn is stupid and a lot less likely to happen at a gaming table. Seriously, can we drop this 'RPGs should be like video games' argument? We heard it already. We disagree. Enough is enough.

Besides, being captured does not equal losing or dying. That's just postponing the winning 'till later. Sure, you can't surrender to a wolf or a zombie (let alone a zombie wolf), but an Imperial garrison would probably accept a surrender unless your GM is an ass.

As an aside, you might not realize it, but most computer games have perma-death. You get shot in Gears of War? Game over. You get killed in Neverwinter Nights? Too bad. You lost. That you get a chance to go back in time and try again doesn't really change the fact that the death is quite permanent. The only CRPG I can think of that did this differently was Planescape: Torment. Also, if you want an RPG without perma-death (not counting the various raise dead options in D&D) you should check out Demon: the Fallen.

But this is Star Wars. You're not playing an immortal angel, nor is there magic that can yank your soul back from Elysium. In Star Wars, the fear of death and the ambition to overcome mortality played a significant role in Anakin's fall. Palpatine devoted his entire life to the mere possibility of immortality. There are games that offer what you seem to want. Star Wars doesn't. And shouldn't.

If you want to wade through puny mortals with impunity, I can recommend Exalted. You will never risk death from even armies of regular folk. If you want death to be an inconvenient, yet ultimately temporary, setback, Demon: the Fallen offers a setting where this actually makes sense.

Enjoy.

Jegergryte said:

AluminiumWolf said:

Then write it yourself and make a blogg about it.

I seriously doubt that any of the game developers are personally offended by these "mainstream" things you mention, on the other hand they might not be satisfied with them, and rightly so - if not they would not need to make anything, since its already made.

How do you, rationally and factually, base your claim that FFG and/or anyone not doing what you consider to be the "right thing" are making games for people who want to "use roleplaying [to] get away from popular culture" ? Its simply not true, its a very misguided and narrow minded claim - this game is not "going away from popular culture" at all - such a claim is not founded in rational or reflective thought, its based in a lack of intellect. For all your whining about video game elements lacking in rpgs, what you are actually talking about is linearity, lack of choice, lack of thinking, lack of creativity - lack of "the game" in the game… What you actually write about - in the terms you use and in the way you write about it - is not what makes those games good or memorable or enjoyable; its not the fact that one respawns or cannot actually die that makes these games good and memorable, its the fact that one managed to defeat some enemy or challenge. The convenience of saving or check points only help to achieve this, but makes the feeling of triumph less - since there was no actual risk of not managing it.

As Slaunyeh said, play Exalted or Demon - its what you're after. You don't want to play Star Wars - you only think you do…

And your misguided statement about "people not staying dead" for long… Chewie still has, from time to time, an impact on the story - what you're saying is, yet again - simply not true, if you actually think about it instead of knee-jerking and reacting. This goes for many other stories too. In some cases you are right, which we are all aware of so you're in some cases preaching to the choir, but in other cases you're dead wrong. Stop your whining and start coming with something useful, rational and related to this game - or better yet, start a blogg!

Perhaps look on the bright side? If the PCs can't die, the players might be easier to convince to be okay with Bad Guys being alive at the end of a fight so you can get in some recurring villain action.

Course, players hate leaving enemies alive almost as much as they hate running away and surrendering, so maybe not.

It is just… Take Firefly. Mr. Whedon was really careful not to kill off anyone he thought would make a good character down the road. Sure, Mal kicks the dude in to a jet engine, but everyone else - the Fed, the Russian Mafia Dude, Christina Hendricks, the Bounty Hunter - all stay active to be used later in the series. I mean, he kills Book and Wash in the movie, but that was a special case, and I don't think anyone was enormously happy with either demise. h

 Re: Reloading saved games.  X-Com has IRONMAN MODE.  One save per game, automatically saves after each move is made.  

THERE ARE NO RELOADS IN HELL!!!!!!!

-WJL

AluminiumWolf said:

AluminiumWolf said:

Pencil-and-paper RPGs and computer RPGs feed off each other.  D&D begot Diablo.  Diablo begot D&D 3.0 (rather blatantly, and openly).  RPGs will change, evolve and bring in newer concepts.  In the information age this will occur at a much higher rate than before.  People still play OD&D, but I certainly prefer the newer versions.  Things change, and that is why we are testing out another version of a Star Wars RPG.

RPG need to keep changing, or they will die out.  Taking good ideas from other places, is . . . well . . . good.
 

The fact is most TT gamers want permadeath in their games. There are TT games out there where death doesn't happen, but for the most part most gamers expect it to be there.

darkrose50 said:

darkrose50 said:

Agreed.

For me FFG Warhammer was the big new change. I was all into complete simulationist and tactical combat of RPG's before. Once I learned the narrative form of Warhammer as a GM I was quite happy. Making maps for planned encounters and managing all of the forces (see here) once took up so much time that play dragged and time between sessions grew. The only problem with Warhammer was it had this great idea on one hand but went overboard and made it too complicated on the other (a.i. too many systems to easily grasp and slightly too many bits and pieces). It was a good thing on all accounts, just too much of a good thing on all accounts. EotE seems to be on board with the basics of Warhammer without over-complicating it.

Simple narrative plus a few bits and pieces playaids is the new good change for me.