Thebearisdriving said:

YYGGPP: 79.9% success probability, mean successes 1.92

YYGGP:  89.3% success probability, mean successes 2.41

both on 50k sim.

And I'm done.  I will not be posting on these threads anymore.

In some threads I'm being called "completely clueless" and worse, I've recieved harrassing PM's, and these recieve no attention by the admins.  However,  I have been repeatedly censured by admins publicly, including the deletion of the paragraph including an apology to poster I responded to and appearently offended and told to avoid personal attacks.

I can admit I am brusque with my posts.  For this or some other reason, it appears that my input here is not welcome.  So it will no longer be provided.  

-WJL

LethalDose said:

Hey LD:  if you choose not to post, that's your call.  i can't tell you what to do.  After the initial brush up I actually have enjoyed this.  you've challanged my idea and made me really think about my position…  despite the "brusque"-ness, i appreciate that element.

As an additional fyi, anydice.com is a great tool that might save you some time in doing the dice calculations.  i found it today and I think it's great.

Now, I stand by my initial argument that moving massive objects is too easy as it stands.  But I have adjusted my thought process, courtesy of both rD and LD. 

I propose increasing the fp cost of moving silhuette 3 and 4 objects by one.  thus to move those objects would cost 3 Fp instead of two. 

Inpart, raving Dork had an excellent point that pushing the fp cost any higher than that runs the risk of making those abilities an XP suck.  After thinking about that I agree.  Also, LD was very right when he pointed out that the odds of gainign 2 FP on a FR 2 roll is less than 50%, so my initial impresson was off. 

However, I stand by the idea that FR 2 characters should have an extremely infrequent chance of lifting objects that size.  Using a dice tool (anydice.com) I did some calculations and this is what I came up with: (this result assumes Darkside points are not to be used)

ouput of 2d{ 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,1,2,2,2}
FP, % chance of getting at least.
0, 100
1, 65.97%
2, 46.53%
3, 14.58%
4, 6.25%

So a padawan could have an even chance to move a human, even a bantha, but once something approached x wing size it gets hard.  If the padawan tries to really throw the x wing it's nearly impossible, though still possible.  Same with the falcon, or other ludicrously sized object.

However, for (the theoretical) FR4 character the odds look much better.

ouput of 4d{ 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,1,2,2,2}
FP, % chance of getting at least.
2, 75.19%
3, 49.67%
4, 31.57%

So now the jedi knight has the same odds of lifting the falcon as the padawan has of lifting the bantha. the jedi knight would have a breezy time lifting the bantha, and could even hurl that sucker pretty reliably.  even hurlign the falcon is within the realm of possibility, but still a long odd.

This small change to the strength upgrades really curtails the ability of a padawan to do ridiculous lifting, w/o removing the possibility of amazing feats, especially when willing to tap into the darkside.  This can make a good character hook for an exiled force user, skilled enough in the force to lift objects of imense size, but to muster the power reliably requires using the darkside, at least until his connection with the force grows, which is so very star wars.

I did a little spec building for characters.  using the same strategy LD outlined earlier for making a Force user, but not purchasing the top two strength upgrades, you can make a force user that can "nova" for impressive damage after only Approximately 4 sessions, but to do so will possibly require tapping into the darkside.  20ish damage is still good, and the "build" can occur for around 160 xp for a human. Even more impressive to me is the fact that for 50 more xp, you can increase you willpower to 3 and your discipline to 5, making for a very accurate flinger of knives and cutlery. 

I spec'd out a rodian bounty hunter/gadgeteer for contrast using the same xp budget.  Aiming pretty purely for damage the build looks like this:

Now, this power house is going to obliterate the force users average damage.  At short range (same as the force user) his attacks are difficulty 1:

output d{0,-1,-2,0,0,0,0,-1} Dificulty Die
+d{0,1,1,2,0,0,0,1} Ability Die
+4d{0,1,1,2,2,0,1,1,1,0,0,1} prof Dice
Successes, % chance to get at least
1, 96.26%
2, 87.78%
3, 71.32%
4, 48.81%

A brutal monster, and with a blaster rifle and Deadly accuracy, not to mention the extra successes likely on a roll, the base damage is 15.  And all that after only 5 sessions.

Now the curve here is that the character doesn't have much of anywhere to grow that dirctly increases like the force user.  but that in turn means that the bounty hunter can become more versatile.

However, using move as a power can accomplish things this bounty hunter can't.  if the Force user attains the second control upgrade, he could rip the power core out of a ship that he is in, or collapse an entrance way.  he could actually lift the other characters up to a higher elevation, and even throw cover in between his allies and the enemy.  there are a lot of non-combat, or at least non-direct damage applications for Move, and not for shooting with a rifle.

As always, feel free to disagree.  Thanks to RD and LD I think I've made my thoughts pretty clear, and if you're still reading this cool.  That's always appreciated.  I won't be upset if the devs don't dig the idea, but I want my voice to be heard, so score one for the interwebs.

i think the force was more to be used as a tool than a end all spec it can be powerfull to those who can think creativly with it.

While I realize that I'm a bit late on this, felt obligated to comment that the Force Powers are insanely underpriced at only 10XP per Power.  It should cost a minimum of 25XP in my opinion, and each "additional" Force Power should cost double the XP of the previous Force Power.

Being able to go from nothing, to having Influence, Sense and Move in just 2 games, in a setting where Force has no teacher, and where people aren't suppose to have easy access to Force Powers, is a bit much.  Making the costs 25 for the 1st, 50 for the second, and 100 for the last means that when someone is Force Sensitive, they're not gonna be Jedi comparable without years of experience…  Decades even.

When the Force book comes out, there could be reductions in the Talent tree (or whole new trees) that remove that multiple, and reduce the cost to 10 each for the correct Career/Specialization, but for the Outer Rim, such ease is too much.

Seriously, in 3 or 4 games, you can go from a Merc gun slinger to a Force Adept of Reknown at the current XP costs…

Gryphynx said:

Given that the Basic effects are really not much more than short-range limited-utility tricks, 10 XP is plenty for a cost, as you've got to spend even more XP to buy those Upgrades, some of which (predominiately the Control Upgrades) cost twice as much due to covering more than one column in the row they're listed in.

There's also the fact that the character needs to have Force Rating 1 in order to buy any of those powers, which is going to cost at least 20 XP (if it's the character's second specialization), and even then are going to be of fairly limited utility until the character burns about 100 XP to get to the Force Rating talent to increase their Force Rating to 2.

So while the initial abilities might seem cheap, the fact that it takes a lot of XP to really make them useful counteracts that in spades.

Donovan Morningfire said:

They're quite a bit more than "limited utility tricks".

While it may be "more powerful" if you pump a lot more points into it (which you're going to do if you spent the 20 to be Force Sensitive anyhows), that doesn't negate the cost problems of getting the Powers.  And that makes them a lot more than just "useful".

Point remains that, in a setting where you're trying to discourage an entourage of Force Users amongst the players, making it so that anyone who goes aheads and spends the 20 points to be Force Sensitive, is going to spread out to all 3 areas with how cheap and easy it is to do so (and how effective it is to do so).  If you've spent the 20 points, and since you're going to climb the Talent Tree regardless (having spent those 20 points, and get that 2nd Force Point) making it so that you're Jedi-Comparable at such a low cost, is counterproductive to the goal. 

What would be thematic, and balancing, would be to make it so that most people stick to a theme (one of the 3), and only branch out if they've really mastered the one area, and even then, there might be better things to buy.  Right now, there's -nothing- better to buy if you've gone ahead and become an Exile.  You're going to end up being a Sensitive Influence Move Force User with Force Rating 2.

My way, and you end up with a Politico who uses Influence to help his career choice, and him spending points to master both his Career and Influence Power, and only buying into the other stuff if he's maxxed both Trees, and even then, he might likely choose to instead be a Scholar instead.  No way, in the current system, is he going to do anything other than max the Force Trees once he's bought the Exile Class.

Gryphynx said:

I disagree. I think that, even ignoreing the thousands of RP reasons to not go all out on force exile, that there are plenty of better ways to spend points. None of the force powers can allow you to fly, or rebuild a broken speeder, or sneak into a building without anyone seeing you, or patch up an injury. There are some very nifty things on the talent tree and the powers are useful but they can't do everything. If the GM strands your maxed out Force exile in the dune sea or the jungles of rodia they'd fail all their survival tests and starve. If they had to navigate an asteriod field they'd crash. Slice a computer? nope. Force powers are just another tool in the toolbox and while they might have more general use they still can't beat the specialist skills and talents.

I do think the powers might need a slightly more painful stick to go with the carrot but it's not to the point of being that game breaking IMHO.

Vonpenguin said:

Just an FYI, none of any of the Talent Trees will allow you to fly, rebuild a broken speeder, or sneak into a building, or patch up an injury.  Those are skills, and a Force User will likely have as many skills as a non-force user.  So, what we should be comparing then is the Talent Trees… rather than Apples to Oranges.

So, in reference to the examples stated…(ignoring the fact that Move Force Power can indeed let you fly…  :P)  Even a Mechanic is no better at rebuilding a broken speeder really.  Well, a -little- better since he can ignore a couple (max 2) of Setback dice, but skill roll is still requisite.  Same with all the examples, and for these people to really be "better", they expend more into their Talent Tree than a Force User does in his (and his abilities are far more impressive).  300 points will cap a Talent Tree.  300 points will cap all 3 Force Power Talent Trees.  

However, that's not the point.

The setting is suppose to be force-light (or even force-nonexistent if possible), and yet the rules make it so that being Force Sensitive is the best option, and is cheap as heck.  Most Force players are going to rush to get Force 2, and since they're there, a bonus Willpower point in the process for an extra 25 points, and the next 175 points (of 300 to cap a Talent Tree) that others spend on Talent Trees is used to be really good at at least 1 of the Force Powers with points to spare, and possibly spend that 175 points on all 3 trees since 30 lets you have all 3, and buying just the 5 point powers for 85 points lets you have good range, strength, etc to all 3 powers with 60 points to spend on level 10 Talents in any of the 3 Powers.

It's not comparable.  While thematically people might not be interested in playing a Force user…there is a ton more bang for your buck to do so.  And this in a setting that's not suppose to have nor encourage much Force usage.  25/50/100 in lleu of 10/10/10 really fixes this.

Gryphynx said:

Which, BTW, the quick-path up the Force Sensitive Talent Tree to get that Force 2 will also do with its Sense Danger Talent.  :P

"Bang for your buck" … that's a philosophy I rarely meet when it comes to playing roleplaying games (as a GM that is, I see it a lot on the interwebz), monopoly sure, but rarely rpgs. I'd like to say I'm not judging, but I am, but that is not the point. I read somewhere the so-called "Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game." So, if the prices are too low in your opinion, change them, increase them.

From my point of view and with the various players I've been gaming with over the last 20 odd years this sentiment of economy thinking when it comes to developing characters is … contrary to my (ours) spirit of roleplaying and is more fitting in competitive games that are about winning, where fellow players are opponents, rather than allies, compatriots, etc.

Still, it also comes down to how rewards are being distributed, but also how you let players acquire new talent trees, new talents and new force powers. For instance I don't let my players acquire new talents in-game without a plausible in-game series of events, same goes for force powers. Talents are more difficult to limit in this fashion, but even in this my players sometimes decides that they cannot acquire before the right "trigger" has occured, even if they want the talent badly. Same for skills. While this might seem boring and limiting to the nonsensical, it makes for good roleplaying, good character development, good stories. I'm not saying its superior to other styles of play (although really I am, but thats not the point), I'm just suggesting that a different approach to the game than "bang for buck" might improve the stories, the game - if people are invested in playing a roleplaying game as opposed to a war game of some sort.

Its obvious that the force sensitives have superior capabilities when compared to non-sensitives, but not in all venues, also there is the consequences for openly using force powers. A gadgeteer or assassin have talents that are superior to the force sensitives in some areas, the scoundrel too. Also, as you say, force sensitives are not really supposed to be widespread in the game, but the option has been included - arguably to appease the fanbase which cannot live without that aspect present; me amongst them. It is up to the GM to limit the presence of force sensitives in his or her game. For this reason I rarely promote the force sensitivity tree in EotE, and in earlier swrpgs rarely promoted the force sensitive classes. If someone wants to play force sensitive I try to find out why, and also I consider the player in question. I have trust in my players to not power monger and go crazy - and if they do I punish them, and they know this.

The one force sensitive I have in my group have spent most of her XP on skills, a few talents on the FSE talent tree, and a few on the assassin tree. She has one force power, sense, with one upgrade. I had to push her into taking that upgrade too, because I found that she needed it and it fits her character concept. The power-gamer in my group is actually the medic it seems, although she does it in a roundabout way that fits with her concept, the stories we've created and events I have thrown at them to handle.

The math of yours is probably correct, your sentiments understood and not wrong per se, but they also promote a very different approach to playing rpgs that I cannot relate to, one which I find destructive to collaboratively creating stories in a shared imaginary space.

Buying into the FSE tree is the same price as buying into career tree, 20XP if its the second specialisation. This can be done at character creation, which is the most likely option in my games. If this is desird at a later date I need some damn good reason or event to let this happen. The force powers are slightly on the low-end of the price spectrum when compared to the talent trees, that is true, but considering the consequences for using them, the price to get there, and what you have to sacrifice to maximise these powers I think its not that bad. My force sensitive player also reacted on the low price, but the advantage for the sense upgrade is good, but not god-like in power. Also, with the updates Move and Influence needs skill uses too, which makes it more of an investment to have a greater chance of success.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I do not share your concern either.

But then, you seem to actually be completely agreeing with me.  Nobody is questioning how one plays in this discussion, and considering this forum is about the Beta version, the only real topic here is if something is balanced and works.  You agree that Force is terribly cheap, and the only counter is that your group doesn't actually abuse it any.

I've been running games since '90, and have yet to run a group where someone didn't want to optimize their character whilst aiming for theme.  I'm more concerned when players don't optimize, as that tends to indicate a lack of attachment, not aiming for survival.  In my test group, we have 6 players testing this game, of the 6, 1 is an android, 1 is a pilot who just decided he hates the Force, the other 4 are Force users.  Admittedly, this is the 4th time we've re-made characters (since we'd pre-agreed that the objective of the games over the holidays was going to be just to test the system).  First thing the players quit doing at Char Gen was spending points on Talents, and spending almost all their points on Characteristics.  Second thing they started doing was spending their opening XP on being Exiles.  Interestingly, each for their own thematic reason.

Whilst the primary force player did indeed start out as an Exile with as many points as possible towards Force 2 so that he'd have it by game 3, he's only had an interest in Move Power, and prior to my changes (I increased costs to 25/50/100) maxxed all three trees early on just because they were cooler than talent trees.  I mean, even if your only reason for taking Exile is to be Telekinetic, a practically free (1 game) ability to Influence someone into "these are not the droids you're looking for" (10 for Influence, 5 for Control Upgrade) is too good to pass up.  And raising it to past that is still more interesting than picking up Toughened or Grit.

Not saying everyone will, but this is about balance of the game, not how your group plays it.

The others, a Scout who wanted Uncanny Senses and Sense Power because it fit his theme, and a Politico who realized that he'd be a lot more influential if he took Exile with the Influence Power, both did similarly.  Picking up Telekinetic powers because they're very useful, and fit the character theme just fine, considering they are Force Sensitive by nature.  The last, he just wanted the Talent Tree because he wanted to convert his Assassin into a Jedi Wannabe, and is trying to get his own Light Saber.  All 4 had thematic, interesting character concepts and themes, but it's just too easy to expand past that theme and in the process, expand the character concept to include these extras.

Generally speaking, I find that players play what their sheet shows.  Rather than limit their purchases to rigid concepts, they allow character concept to evolve with the character sheet.  It's great that there are groups out there who lack any inherent desire to be Force Users with how inexpensive it is, but that doesn't translate to a solid cost for Force Powers.

However, again, these are all besides the point.  The point, is that it's too easy to be a force user with all the force powers in a game where there's not suppose to be that many Force Sensitive people.  You WILL have games, like this one I'm running, where people take up Force Sensitive, and expand into the 3 powers, and end up with games that are Force heavy where they should be Force light.  The followup point thus being, if the game is intended to be Force Light, costs will need to be changed.

How people play in a particular group, has no bearing on that.

then you need to stress it to your players that using the force has consequences beyond the fact that hunted down and killed. Your entire family line might be extinqushed as well or enslaved.

How visible is using the Force?  Assuming we stick to the intent and are playing Outer Rim planets, even if someone wonders why they believed the guy who said "These are not the droids you're looking for", why would he assume that the Force (described as mythology to Outer Rim people) was in use?  Even in the movies, telekinetic usage didn't require hand gestures, though hand gestures did seem to help at times, allowing enemies to blind-side their opponent with heavy objects.  And of course, the Sense is how recognizable?  There are no outward signs…

Now, if they were going around by flying through the air without jetpacks, convincing everyone to do things totally against their nature, etc, that'd be one thing… but most use of the Force, especially in an area where the Force Sensitive KNOW to not flagrantly use their powers for everyone to see, would be too subtle to notice.  

Gryphynx said:

How visible is it in the movies and Clone Wars animated series?  There's your answer as to how "visible" the Force is in EotE.  There were no sparkles around the stormtrooper's head when Obi-Wan said "these aren't the droids you're looking for."  There were no cartoonish waves of air to indicate that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were telekinetically blasting away battle droids while aboard the Trade Federation control ship.  No tendrils of energy as Dooku lifted, chocked, then tossed Obi-Wan during their rematch aboard Grievous' flagship in Revenge of the Sith.

Being a Force-user in Star Wars (particularly the EotE version) is not the same thing as being a Wizard in D&D.  The powers are a lot weaker, especially given the absolute best result a Force-user can hope for on their Force Dice is 4 Force Points with a Force Rating of 2, with the average result of one Force Point per die rolled seeming to be the norm.  And with a Force Rating of 1, and a decent chunk of those times the PC is going to have to spend a Light Side Destiny Point and suffer some strain in order to get that Force Point due to the Force Dice having more Dark Side facings than Light Side.  Having played and seen played such "low level" Force-users, their abiltiies are far from game-breaking unless they've sunk a lot of their XP into just buying the power upgrades.  XP that other PCs will have spent raising skills and buying talents that can be used more frequently without drawing the kind of heat that being a Force-user will draw if discovered.

Also, it says right in the section on creating a character that a player wanting a Force-Sensitive PC should get their GM's permission before doing so.  Force-users are supposed to be quite rare, particularly duing the Dark Times and Rebellion Era, either due to being hunted down (the fate of most Jedi), in hiding (most Force Traditions), or directly serving the Emperor.

If you as the GM aren't comfortable with having one or more Force-senstive PCs, then simply tell your players "sorry guys, but no Force-users this time out."

Ok, but while the solution of "GM has to approve" is indeed one way of handling this, that's true for every aspect of the game.  Objective here is to create rules which support the intent of the game.  The current rules do not.

And we agree… there's no way to notice most use of the Force, so no way to really use punishment for usage of the Force as a tool.