ErikB said:

Well, in short, because this

I'd rather start with low to moderate expectations and a loose vision of what to expect from the content when I see it.  That way, I'm not disappointed when released product doesn't match what I wanted, because 'what I wanted' was very vague.  I feel to project my desires and hopes onto a media product that's just been announced and has a 2.5 year development and production cycle in an IP that I feel this strongly about is… well…

Folly. 

 

It was painful enough going from how I felt about Star Wars in 1998, when the OT had become a very important part of my late childhood and early adulthood, to how I felt about it in 2005 after Lucas put it through the wood-chipper.

This is the biggest Star Wars news since the prequels were announced.  Maybe even since Empire Strikes Back was announced, because of how far forward Star Wars is going to be carried.  I'm not saying other people shouldn't get excited about.  By all means, do/say/feel whatever you want about this news

Really, I don't understand how me saying "I'm looking forward to seeing what happens, but controlling my excitement" matters to anyone on this forum. My way's not necessarily right for everyone, I just prefer to keep a cool temper about it so I can be more objective about what's presented.  I suspect a lot of other fans in my generation are going to feel the same way.  But I don't think they necessarily need to or should feel this way. 

It's just that I'm keeping an open mind about what could happen (in both directions) so I can keep an objective eye on what does happen.

-WJL

mwodom said:

Yeah, but I suspect it's gone pretty quickly, since this was a WHOLESALE acquisition/merger/whatever of the of LFL (already entirely the property of a single man) by a massive corporation that already had extremely close relations with them.  The merger may not have occurred in a matter of hours or days, but a time frame measured in weeks is very plausible, especially considering how likely it was that Lucas approached them.

This time frame isn't comparable to the intervals it takes, for instance, to find a new developer/distributor for a small aspect of the license, like miniature, card, and RP games.  In this latter instance, there were multiple possible new partners (none of which LFL had worked with), a previous partner to break ties with, details beyond price tag to negotiate, etc, etc.  Remember, FFG was only in very late negotiations, or had recently closed the deal by Dec 2010, after WotC lost the license nearly a year earlier, and then they didn't announce they even had the license until Aug 2011, just before GenCon.  

I think it's unlikely Lucas knew he was going to be selling is entire company to Disney almost two years ago.

-WJL

ErikB said:

Well, consider the fan expectations when news of the Prequels were announced, and the anticipation of a new trilogy even before we saw the first teaser trailer for Phantom Menace.

And then consider the fandom response after The Phantom Menace hit theaters.

So better to be cautiously optimistic, particularly with very little in the way of factual details about what these new films will be about, than to get one's hopes up only to have them dashed because this new trilogy didn't live up to perceived expectations.

Though TPM wasn't a stellar film by any means (really, the entire thing could be jettisoned had and have zero impact on the overall story of the movies), I think it was doomed to fail in meeting expectations from the start.  Even a top-notch director like James Cameron, Peter Jackson, or even the likes of geek gods like Joss Whedon would have been hard-pressed to make a Star Wars film that could hope to contend with a decade and a half of fan anticipation.  Lucas' lack of growth as a director certainly didn't help, nor did some of the casting choices for the new main characters (namely Padme & Anakin), though I enjoyed Ewan McGregor's portrayal of Obi-Wan immensely.

Lot of revisionist history on these boards.  Phantom Menace was very well received by both fans and the general public.  Unfortunately what you had was the advent of the interweb and the emergence of new personal soapboxes of thousands of fans who comprised a small, yet vocal minority of fans who used that power to bash George Lucas and seem singularly obsessed with doing so to this day.  Get over it!

The reality is TPM was pretty well regarded by most cinema goers in 1999. TPM received a Cinemascore grade of A (tied for the 2nd highest of summer releases and only eclipsed by "The Sixth Sense") by the general public and made tons of money during an extended theatrical run that lasted throughout the entire summer (not a common feat for a film everyone supposedly hated).  Lucas bashing fans love to cite Rotten Tomato scores of the OT vs. the PT as proof the "prequels suck and no one likes them."  Unfortunately this is based on revisionist history as well as most OT scores were revised due to critics reviews of the Special Editions.

RT did and interesting survey following the release of Revenge of the Sith.  They compared the Tomato Meter scores of the Prequel Trilogy with those of the Original Trilogy based on the critics reviews at the time of the release… And lo' and behold the Prequel Trilogy actually scored higher with critics on the Tomatometer overall than the OT.  ANH had the highest score of all films with a score of 82%, followed by ROTS with a Tomatometer score of 80%, next was TPM with an original score of 74% (it's dropped over the years largely due to blogging and video "review" web sites), the much heralded TESB came in with a "Rotten" rating of 52%, then AOTC with an original score of 38%, and finally ROTJ with a score of 31%.

Of course fanboys are dismayed but they fail to grasp that there was some backlash against TESB, even among the fan community back in 1980. A lot of fans thought it to be too dark; many fans and critics thought Empire lacked the charm and camp factor of ANH. Other thought TESB was boring, especially the Dagobah scenes. The film got mixed reactions from critics with some like Gene Siskel and Roger Ebert praising the depth of the film. Siskel even compared it to the "Godfather II" as sequel which surpassed the original. But MANY critics had problems with the middle portion of the film and said that it was "dull" and lacking "real spiritual depth.  One critic at the time said Yoda's teachings we about as deep "as observations found in a Fortune Cookie."  And many critics had problems with the cliffhanger ending.

The point is there's plenty of room in the Star Wars universe for fans of all stripes and tastes.  Frankly some of the best bounty hunter and fringe stories have been coming from the Clone Wars animated series.  I would highly recommend the "Obi Wan Undercover" trilogy (Season 4 Episodes 15-17) and "Bounty."  Frankly "Bounty" may be one of the best Star Wars Fringe/Underworld stories ever put to film, television or print.

 

Yancy

Gallandro said:

So, I'm not quite sure who you're addressing here about "revisionist history".  I assume I am, at least in part, who you were addressing because I don't see many other mentions of previous movies, especially ESB, in the last few posts.  So if it's not me, I'm sorry, I'm not trying to stir the pot, despite some vocal opinions as to why I post on these forums.  If you are addressing me, I'm not clear about why you think I'm providing a revisionist history.  I said:

LethalDose said:

I never said they were bad movies (I think they are, but I didn't say above.  More on that in a bit).  I DO think Lucas did substantial damage to the IP, especially with TPM.  The words "Midichlorians" and "Padawan" have grated on my nerves since the first time I heard them.  Overall I think the prequels, and yes, the animated series have ultimately added very little to the story of Star Wars, and I would have preferred they not have been made.  This isn't revisionist history because it's how I feel about the films.  And, especially in the case of TPM, I've felt this way since the first time I saw them.  And while it's become popular to hate TPM, I'm not trying to claim "I was hating them before it was cool". It's just the truth.  I didn't hate TPM after I saw it (I still don't 'hate' it), but that doesn't mean I liked it all.  I was then and am now very disappointed in how it changed the story of Star Wars.  

MovieBob has a worthwhile and recent review of TPM here.  I agree with most of what he says, but the points I would borrow was that it added very little to the story and, like many summer SF blockbusters, had good action and effects while totally failing on characters and story.

Further, I was born less than 4 months before ESB was released, and I was 3 when ROTJ came out.  I couldn't have been influenced by their critical reception at release.  I grew to love them by watching them in the late 80s and 90s after an obscene number of viewings.  I found common ground with a lot of people that became close friends because of these movies.  I got introduced to RP via WEG's D6 Star Wars.  So yeah, I think the OT are better films than the prequels, and I have since I first saw the first prequel.

Finally, you cite RT extensively for evidence and show that ESB & ROTJ received poor critical receptions at launch (52% and 31%, respectively), and TPM & ROTS were very well received by critics (74% and 80%, respectively).  But to what end?  I never said the critics agreed with my opinion.  Besides, It's not 1999, or 2002, or 2005.  It's 2012.

Do you think, now, that ROTS is a better film than ROTJ?  That TPM is better than than ESB?

For that matter, based on RT scores, do you think Twillight  (critical score 48%) is a better movie than ROTJ?  Or about as good as ESB?

You're entitled to your opinion, and it's fine if you agree with any or all of those comparisons.  Personally, I don't think any of the above statements are true.  That doesn't mean I'm trying to revise history.  It means I disagree with the critics ratings.  I think they were wrong to begin with.  

So I say "Who cares if critics hated ESB/ROTJ when they came out?"  I don't. I think they're great films, and have for years.  I don't see this changing.

I also say "Who cares if critics loved TPM when it came out?".  I don't. I didn't like it then, and I still don't.  I don't see this changing either.

You claim "there's a lot of revisionist history on these boards".  Where?  

-WJL

 Oh, as a PS to that post: 

You cite 4 episodes out of four (five?) seasons of the animated series.  I don't see that as nearly enough success to justify a claim that entire series has added to the SW story.

LethalDose said:

Really all it has done is further confused the lore as the prequels before them. Also Darth Maul….alive……the heck?

With lots of rumbling that Disney is going to basically kill the EU, and the best part at that, I just keep feeling like, "This deal is getting worse all the time."

Gallandro said:

I remember it that at the time a lot of website did a thing where they gave you two reviews - click here if you want a positive review, or click here if you want a negative review.

Actually LD my post wasn't directed at you at all, it ws simply a general vibe coming from the board. The subtle sniping at Lucas over perceived deficiencies in the PT, the suggestions that things will be so much better now that Lucas is out of the way. So no this was not directed at you personally.

 

As for quoting RT scores that's just the nature of the beast. Lucas bashers frequently cite RT scores. As for the comparison between RT scores of Twilight and ROTJ… who cares? Some critics may simply prefer the genre. I have ZERO doubt if I took most of my youngest daughters's (BTW she's an enormous Star Wars nerd) friends in a room and showed the Twilight and then ROTJ they would almost universally prefer Twilight. Film criticism is completely subjective.

 

However, the incessant Lucas bashing is ridiculous. While I look forward to what Disney has in store for the Saga, I'm also very sad about the move. Lucas was the consummate indie filmmaker, producing his films on his terms, telling the stories he wanted to tell. My one fear with Star Wars out of his hands is these future pictures will be Star Wars by committee with Disney bowing to the wishes of fanboys who think they know what's best.

 

Frankly most fanboy fanfic and fanfilms are pretty dreadful.

 

Yancy 

Lord of Malice said:

Actually the Clone Wars is quite an enjoyable show, and certainly great eye candy. Narratively they're just treading water, since, apart from the fates of about three supporting characters, everything else is locked down by the opening of Revenge of the Sith. Still, it's a fun weekly romp in Star Wars land… especially if you have kids.

But when you talk about killing the EU… I dunno. Are people really attached to that stuff? Really? I used to voraciously read every Star Wars novel that came out, but about the time of Rogue Planet, I just had to give up because they were all becoming so terrible. I had one more kick at the cat with the one Alan Dean Foster did (because it was Alan Dean Foster), and it was completely lame, too.

Nobody's gonna agree on everything, but I think we can all agree that new Star Wars films need top-notch writers… and you just can't take a clutch of top-notch writers and chain them to a stack of crappy books. Like, do I want to go and see Episode VII to see who they've cast as a 65 year-old Mara Jade? No. Do I want to go and see Episode VII to have my brain melted by new characters, concepts, and ideas? Hell yeah.

So, in summary… down with the EU! 

I. J. Thompson said:

I have actually watched Clone Wars and find it to be an overall enjoyable experience. Barring seasons 1 & 2 were most of the episodes were slow or pointless it began to improve in season 3 when Filoni was given more freedom. But the Clone Wars does confuse a lot of existing lore still, Mandalorions, Dothomir, & Maul being primary examples. Also the most recent arc with Onderon has been odd as the world looks like Onderon but doesn't act much like Onderon as shown in other sources, Tales of the Jedi how I miss you. As long as Anakin doesn't steal Obi-Wan's greatest achievement of killing Maul I won't much care.

As to the EU. Star Wars EU is sometimes confusing and murky. Individual novels often have inconsistencies, even in the same series, and there are lots of little odd bits. I know I got turned off post Jedi EU by Legacy, whoever thought having Traviss and Denning write books in the same series was an idiot. But the unbroken continuity of the Star Wars property is one of its greatest draws. When you pick up a game you know that it is part of the Star Wars history, at least the broad strokes, every comic ties in somewhere, every novel is part of the continuity (even the young adult kids stuff). I just do not want to see them kill that, because for me, I would cease purchasing anything besides games, films, rpg products as everything else isn't even part of Star Wars at that point.

And truthfully for an Episode VII they could quite easily fit stories in between EU bits. Or take the broad strokes of one of the good series and turn it into film. I just do not see a company purposefully alienating its hardcore fan base when it could just as easily be avoided.

Gallandro said:

Alright, cool. I'm honestly shocked the TPM and ROTS have RT scores are that high. And, you're right: the critics are subjective.  Further, the criteria they use to evaluate movies are substantially different than criteria fans use to evaluate movies.

 Gallandro said:

I agree with you in that I appreciate Lucas' indie roots, and I understand your concern about "Star Wars by committee".  But I think the prequels demonstrate the danger that resides at the other end of that spectrum.  Yes, It was pure Lucas that we saw in the PT.  They were his unadulterated view of the what the Star Wars prequels should be

And MAN did that hurt.

I think the problem was that Lucas had monolithic control.  Some external input could have substantially helped those films, at least in smoothing some abrasive story points and pacing.  For the new films, Lucas is still involved.  And while he's not writing them, he's clearly not the only source of good idea for Star Wars.  I'd cite Zahn's Thrawn trilogy, Stackpole's "I, Jedi", and whoever at LucasArts wrote Jedi Outcast.

Anyway, I think some fresh air will do the series good.

-WJL

I'd go for remakes, because there is nothing wrong with telling the same story again. It is what people have always done. 

Tell me about how Robin Hood robbed from the rich and gave to the poor. How resisted the tyranny of Prince John and the Sheriff of Nottingham. How he duelled Little John on a log and won his loyalty, or wooed Maid Marion. About the archery contest for the golden arrow, and the return of Richard the Lionheart. I like that story.

 

 

 I can't get behind that. If I wanna watch A New Hope, I'll just pop it in. 

I. J. Thompson said:

Agreed. The older Star Wars movies have already been remade more then once with updated technology. It's not like we are watching old Star Wars movies with ancient, poor visuals. They are pretty up-to-date as is.