Hi everyone,

Here's the week 7 update for the beta. I'd like to direct your attention to a final revision to pricing for talents and specializations. 

Excellent clarifications on maintaining Move and I think it's a good call to make the base Move power short (but I have a question).

One thing. It says:

Force Power: Move, Control Upgrade (pages 184-185):
Increase the range of the Move Basic Power to Short.

So is this only with the Control Upgrade or is Basic move going from engaged to short even if you don't have the control upgrade?

usgrandprix said:

Yeah, that's confusing. Is it the Basic power that's being upgraded? And if so, are we losing a Control upgrade /slash/ does the missing Control upgrade do something different now?

 Also: now specializations are too expensive :( I felt like before they were just accessible enough to get two, maybe 3, specializations at the expensive of increasing characteristics. Now I feel that they've been put out of reach in terms of pricing, and now it only makes sense to pump characteristics at character creation, ignoring extra specializations until you start playing.

 I'm confused, with the droids, were they supposed to get the Durable talent? I can't seem to find an Enduring talent. I like the skill change, but I feel that the new cost of specializations is really restrictive to characters who want to be more than one trick ponies. It also doesn't address the issue of having to choose your specializations in a certain order so as to get the most out of your points.

I'm also confused about the change to the Control Upgrade that makes the Move Basic Power short range, which upgrade was this added to?

Hi Testers,

The Enduring Talent used to be named "Resilient." This was changed in an earlier update and this change can also be found in the errata document on page 4. 

We apologize about the confusion with the Move basic power change. Yes, this has nothing to do with its control upgrade, and is simply a change to the basic power. 

awayputurwpn said:

I agree with you on this.  I still think the original cost of specializations (# of specs x 5) with a +10XP kicker would be the optimal solution, particularly with non-career skills going back to their original pricing, which was one of the big draws of choosing non-career specs, to get those skills as career skills.

I certainly applaud the updates to the Move Basic Power, both in terms of its range and being able to maintain the powers' effects.

FFG_Sam Stewart said:

Cool. Also, what do we do now with the range upgrades? Leave them be?

Week 7 update is awesome.  I whole-heartedly agree with all changes made.  I especially like the force move update, for totally ego-centric reasons.

The devs still need to address the following issues, in order of decreasing priority:

1. Fix the dice mechanics.  [Top priority]
2. Auto-fire is too powerful.  
3. Mild skill consolidation.
4. Droids still need a boost (though the Enduring talent makes a lot of sense, there's a long way to go).
5. Damage scaling between characters, vehicles, and starships feels clunky, and could afford some tweaking.
6. Provide a use for vigilance for force powers.
7. Add specialization career skills for Force Exiles. [Lowest priority]

Proposed solutions, respective to list above:

1. Either address source of the problem (distribution of symbols on the dice), OR re-balance ability costs, maneuvers, defense, etc to reflect the source (player vs luck vs GM ruling) and actual effect (numerical advantage provided) of the abilities.
2. Increase cost to activate AF.  Regardless, please make changes in small increments: start with increasing the adv cost to 2, then re-evaluate.
3. Officially break rigid ties between skills and attributes.  Allow the appropriate attribute for a skill to vary by the task at hand.  This will allow consolidation of pilot skills, vigilance/perception/surveillance['s old uses], and potentially others.
4. Consider giving Droids either a set of integrated equipment starting packages, about 2 per class OR provide droids with a credit allowance at creation to purchase integrated equipment.
5. Create new damage scale "Speeder" or "Vehicle" for Landspeeders, airspeeders, AT-PTs, etc.  Ratio of character:speeder:starship scale something around 1:5:10.  TIE's and AT-ATs can stay "Starship" scale.  Or just scale armor value to silhouette or something.
6. This description hasn't been removed from the Vigilance tree, and I think the majority of players feel that adding discipline uses to the Influence and Move powers was generally positive.  Provide similar uses for Vigilance to the Sense power (either default or via control upgrades).
7. Discipline and Vigilance should be the minimum of the Force Exile's spec skill list.  This can allow the removal of the Insight talent.  This frees a talent slot in the tree to add a "Clear your mind" talent or other talent.

But again, great work on this update.  Keep this up and it'll be ready to ship in short order!

-WJL

PS Thank you again for fixing the forum's text editing bug.

Donovan Morningfire said:

That was the exact reason it had to be changed.  New specs should be taken to represent substantial character growth and change, not for a discount on skill prices.

Besides, the OOC cost of skills is back to it's original, and really pretty dirt cheap, price.

-WJL

awayputurwpn said:

Curious about that myself, unless the intent is for Move to be viable in vehicle/space combat, which has an added range category that character-scale ranges don't have.

LethalDose said:

And what of those character concepts best served by blending two specializations at the start, even if they're from the same career?  Given how little I've seem folks jump into multiple careers at character creation (with the noted exception of power-gamers trying to exploit the system), I really don't see how this most recent revision is needed, behind shoehorning players into staying within certain career boundaries.

This current update also really screws over anyone wanting to play a Force-Sensitive character, as they now have to pay 30 XP to get a trait that does them zero good without spending even more starting XP.

Granted, I've deep-sixed the official rules on official specialization costs when it comes to becoming Force-Sensitive (as well as constructing additional Force specializations), but not everyone's gone that route.

After this, I'm starting to see why Venkelos feels there's a definite anti-Jedi bias in this game.  It's one thing to want Force-sensitives to be rare, which is already covered by the bit of text that says "ask your GM's permission before making a Force-Sensitive PC, it's something a bit different to be forced to spend nearly a third of your starting XP (closer to a fourth of it if you're Human) for a trait that provides no real benefit unless you spend even more XP.  At least with a regular non-career spec, you get a few new career skills which will generally be far more useful than the basic ability of a Force Power.

The upgrade to the Move Basic Power does counteract this, as it's gone from "nifty party trick" to marginally useful, only requiring a minimum of 2 FPs to be useful in combat (1 to activate, 1 for a Strength Upgrade) rather than three that were needed previously (1 to activate, 1 for Strength, 1 for Range), as well as the sidebar on maintaining the power.  Nice to see that the developers agreed with my sentiment that under most circumstances, the power lasts as long as it's needed within reason (several minutes is as good a guideline as any for "Jedi Boy is getting carried away with carrying stuff along"), with the Ongoing Effect option for combat encounters.

Donovan Morningfire said:

Well, 3 points:

1. If the OOC spec is vitally important to character concept, then the player should take it, and view it as being worth the points.  The new spec will likely bring substantial benefit that will make the price worth it in flexible talents skill choices.  This is exactly what I meant when I said "substantial character growth and change": It's a big move, with lots of benefits, and therefore should be expensive.
2. As a GM, honestly, I will probably not count the starting spec against the cost hike, which brings the cost for the first additional spec to 10/20, where it was before, but still handles the scaling well and charges a premium for out of career.  I thought this was in the revision, and it wasn't.  
3. They said it's final, so there's very little point in discussing it further.

 Honestly, I preferred the original system with a 3-spec limit, ability to drop old specs, permanent talents, and set spec costs; It just needed a way to improve attributes that didn't require goofy spec buying methods.  But I think that this is final system is pretty damned good, too.  

If you need to piss and moan about how Force users are getting shafted and you're right and the devs don't get it, there are plenty of threads for that. But as far as these numbers are concerned?

It's Done. 

It's Final.  

Do what you have to do to live with the facts.

Game over, man, GAME OVER!

-WJL

LethalDose said:

Sorry you feel that bringing up a possible concern of the potential consumer base, on that has been mentioned quite often, counts as "pissing and moaning," but the fact remains that it is just as much a concern as your own about how the dice math regarding Proficiency dice doesn't quite work out or how powerful Autofire currently is.

The fact that FFG is still accepting comments and suggestions regarding this Beta would be a pretty strong indication that any of the topics under discussion are "done and final."  But if you want to be defeatist about it, then you're certainly welcome to do so.  Just because you don't have an issue with a particular aspect of the Beta or the upgrades doesn't mean everybody else feels the same way.

Hell, the simple fact that non-career skills went back to their original, pre-update cost after extensive feedback from the playtesters regarding the escalated costs says that things are far from being "done and final" where the Beta is concerned.

So until the December 1st deadline passes, I fully intend to keep providing FFG my feedback, thoughts, and suggestions both here, on the D20 Radio Forums, and via direct e-mail, both on the existing rules and the updates made to said rules, and probably long after that point as well.  After all, there are numerous game systems that have errata issued based upon player feedback, so why should EotE be any different?

LethalDose said:

That's fairly dismissive for someone posting this:

LethalDose said:

The first especially. That ship has already sailed. The starter set is at the printer, so there is no going back now. They aren't going to have one set of dice for the starter set and another for the final EotE book. 

As far as the Specialization Cost is concerned, this is a change for the better. I can understand the thought that it is too expensive, but I think it works as is (now you can look at a character and know how many XP it is built with). I agree that it is still dirt cheap for that 2nd and even 3rd spec.

An easy houserule fix would be to change it to 10 x current number of specs. That would keep the same rising cost for 3rd, 4th,5th, etc that a x5 multiplier lacks.

Let's not turn this thread into a intarwebz flamewar… that's probably when the devs stop reading the thread, and we all lose. 

I think the rules, as they stand now, provide an excellent framework for GM's to expand upon, if they really want to dive deeper.  I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement, but the Jedi side of the house hasn't been neglected either - and the devs were pretty clear that Jedi weren't going to be the primary focus of this particular installment of the RPG.

Regardless, I have neutral feelings about this weeks update.  The costs for extra specializations would be much more manageable with a "n-1" approach… that is to say, reword the update on page 2 to say something like:

"Purchasing an additional specialization within a character’s career costs ten times the total number of specializations he would possess with this new specialization, not including the first specialization purchased at character creation."  or just "… minus one." 

… such that "a character with one specialization could purchase a second career specialization for 10 experience. If he wished to purchase a third career
specialization, it would cost 20 experience…" and "a character with one specialization could purchase a second–non-career–specialization for 20 experience. If he had two specializations already, a third specialization that was also a non-career specialization would cost 30 experience."

The update to droids is helpful, but I'm not sure it completely offsets their XP deficiet. 

NEXT UP

LethalDose said:

All of this - especially the top 4 you listed - are great suggestions and I'm onboard.  Although I would probably make some minor changes to include more space combat updates as my #5… the remaining ones (scaling, jedi stuff) are less critical but still worth looking at.

1.  Fix the dice mechanics >> triumph counts at 3 successes; despair counts as 3 failures

2.  Auto-fire is too powerful >> increase cost to 2 advantage

3.  Mild skill update >> some consolidation, some additions (i.e. demolitions)

4.  Droids still need a boost >> more starting XP or can train up to rank 3 skills at creation

5.  Gain the Advantage is too powerful >> specify a one-round duration, and allow for choice of defense zone OR mitigating evasive manuevers

6.  Damage scaling between characters, vehicles, and starships >> 1/5/10 ratio

7.  Provide a use for vigilance for force powers >> "yes, you packed your lightsaber" jkjk

8.  Add specialization career skills for Force Exiles >> discipline, vigilance, perception, lightsaber(!?!??!?/1111?//1?)

I'm also feeling twice-weekly updates on Tuesday and Friday from here on out to December 1st.  :)