AluminiumWolf said:

Well, the Rebels WERE outmatched in both quantity and quality if you are just comparing numbers and the training of a typical rebel soldier compared to the most elite of the Empire. Of course that is not the reality of it. The rebels had guerilla tactics. The rebels had "PCs" with extraordinary abilities. The rebels had better snub fighters. Rebel troopers were probably of better quality then Imperial soldiers, just not Imperial Stormtroopers, which is about all we get to see in the movies due to the action being centered around Darth Vader and the rebel heroes.

I don't mean to be rude here, but after reading lots of posts in other threads, you seem to like coaxing people into non-sensical arguments distracting from the OP. I saw others accuse you of being a troll, but I've been giving you the benefit of doubt thus far.

 I would argue that people should be thinking of Stormtroopers not as Waffen SS and the PCs as Russian Peasants, or Stormtroopers as US Marines and the PCs as Mujahideen Insurgents, because seriously, in those match ups no one wants to play the Russians or the Terrorists. h

Rather, Stormtroopers are the soldiers of the Soviet Union in the cold war. Poorly trained disposable, poorly educated and completely brainwashed conscripts of The Evil Empire that doesn't care about them. In particular, they drive cheap, mass produced T-72 that have lousy armour and a lousy gun but come in large quantities. And the PCs are the heroic professional, individualistic, citizen soldiers of NATO - massively outnumbered, but better trained and driving an M1A1 Abrams tank with Chobham Armour, the best tank gun the world has ever seen, depleated uranium ammo, laser sights and thermal imagers. Because in that match up, persuading someone to play the Russians and charge their crappy tanks in to the guns of the M1s and sweep their little men off the board with a broom is the hard part. h

LethalDose said:

LethalDose said:

With the new Adversary Talent, I might two, maybe three versions of Storm Troopers

Level 1:  These guys are the terible ones, the ones who get sent to the backwater, crummy places.  Used mostly to establish Imperial presence than anything.

Level 2:  These guys are a bit better.  Will probably be seen on Star Destroyers or places worth defending, or be in on crummy worlds but are lead by someone who actually wants to do the best job there is.

Level 3:  Elites.  These guy might have the standard gear, but they are better on the inside.  Used for special places like Darth Vader's Squadron, the Death Star(s), Imperial Center, adn other important Imperial worlds.  Will hav access to alot more of the Level 2s with basic patrols being done by new recruits (Level 1s)

What do you all think?

AluminiumWolf said:

Nope, its the other way around - because the Palestinians are the good guys and the Israelis are just puppets of the evil empire, if not its own self-contained evil empire (they could be the corporate sector: well armed - better armed than the rebels anyways - backed by the empire, but ultimately evil and self-absorbed in greed). The good fight is more valuable than the evil fight… hence we root for the rebellion rather than the bureaucratic and evil machine that is Mammon (ie capitalistic imperialism) and its hegemonic and moronic self-entitled "end of history" and other such phantasies espoused by the evil emperor and his henchmen.

Or, we could play the game FFG is making (which I'd prefer) - which takes no side in an ultimately ideological conflict of who has the authority and monopoly on the definition of "right", "wrong", "evil", "good" and "truth" … and when - as with all organisations that outgrow its initial purpose - the ideological groups becomes oligarchies, the conflict rekindles, if it was ever really put out. The wheel of change continues and the players lives continue more or less untouched by the political shift, only noticing new uniforms and numbers for the same laws that prohibit smuggling, killing and disintegrations… We could play more or less self-absorbed individuals trying to survive in a morally dubious underworld where might makes right (just like in intra-galactic politics), but the law is how much money and ammo you have (again the similarity is striking), and the enemies are big slime balls or green piggies with axes. Its more about survival than ideology… its more about style than who's got the biggest and coolest flag and symbol.

Sarone said:

Similar thought I had, so yes, I think its a good idea. Level 1 has no adversary talent, but perhaps the level 2 has? Level 3 has at least one rank of that talent.

Jegergryte said:

Hmm. I think what I am arguing for will result in something closer to the original intent of Star Wars. If that matters to people. h

Clonetroopers/stormtroopers were responsible for conquering 2/3rds of the known galaxy.  Countless alien species (fighting for their very lives, countless inhabited worlds, etc…   Their stats should dam well reflect this.  

D20/SAGA stormtroopers were a joke.

$hamrock said:

 Well, everyone go watch this Aeon Flux Short - War:- h

http://www.watchcartoononline.com/aeon-flux-episode-6-war

If people see a lone hero gunning down a bunch of mooks, people will tend to be on the side of the lone hero, even if they know nothing about why he is fighting. The short plays with that by sort of trying to get you to switch allegance to a new character by showing them gunning down a bunch of the people who were, a moment ago, the heroes. If you show a Stormtrooper gunning down a horde of rebel mooks, people are gonna think the Stormtrooper is the cool guy, which - isn't appropriate for a Star Wars game. h

When the Clones are the good guys, they fight larger numbers of inferior battle droids. When they are the bad guys, Storm Troopers are The Horde, facing The Elite of the Rebels. h

Wow this discussion seem to be spiraling out of control - calm down folks, we are all here to have fun and exchange ideas, no need to get personal just because you disagree with someone even if you happen think their arguments are off the mark or even outright pointless.

Here is where Im coming from: I have played a couple of SW campaigns before, but Im not really ultra versed in the universe however taht doesnt stop me from having an oppinion ;) My impression from the original SW movies reflect the PCs as mid-high level characters figthing and often running from Stromtroopers …only really significantly outclassing them in the final movie. A key thing to keep in mind here is that the PCs are well ….PCs!!! My impression from stormtroopers is that they should be henchmen, but in general pretty damn good henchmen … (yes yes, lets have grap garrison, though would these actually be stormtroopers? - regular and special elite versions by all means!) being hencmen but pretty competent should allow them to challange beginning characters one-on-one,  be a threat in numbers to mid level … and be pretty outclassed by higher level characters.

In my view the greatest in SW is when you can get to feel like the original heroes … and to feel really heroic means doign something thats not a walk in the park … so just like PCs should not ruitinely blow up Deathstars …winning a fight against a major detachment of (elite) stormtroopers should also feel like a major accomplishment …

AluminiumWolf said:

Its fair to have your own views on how SW should play - but seriously dude, regarding Soviet Union or weapons … you seem pretty clueless, the Russians were in the 70s fully up to par with the vest …behind in some areas, ahead in others …and their conscript army was by all indications no worse or better trained than most NATO or US conscript armies - and their special forces were if anything better than what the west had at the time. While its true that the T72 was built to be 'cheap' …just like the F-16 btw ;) that didnt mean it was a bad tank (just like the T34 was in reality a much better value-for-money tank than the Tiger) … and you have to keep in mind that there was a distinct qualitative difference between the export models and the ones kept domestically (atleast according to Tanknet).

As a side note the M1 Abrams didnt enter service until a decade later …and current version costs around US$8.58 million vs. the T72s current cost of US$1–2 million

 I lean toward stormtroopers being better rather than worse. I could tell you why I feel that way, hell, i could back it up with sources that would shatter other arguments, but what's more important now? Civility. Let Aluminium disagree with you without attacking him for doing so. He's attacked no one here. Just shared an opinion. I disagree with him too, but I don't find it intolerable that he doesn't have the same view as I do.

how bout we all pretend we're face to face. Huh? As an exercise?

History has shown that even the "best" trained armies can be held off by smaller guerrilla forces for varying periods of time. Those guerrilla forces vary in their training, but they all usually have one thing on their side which is a belief in what they are fighting for. Stormtroopers are an amalgamation of various sources; Roman Legions, Nazi soldiers, Russian War machine, etc. There is no reason they can't be run as one-shot, kicks & giggles minions as well as for a more serious enemy. Either one fits. The sources from which they are derived have been shown in both extremes as well as everything in between. It all depends on what type of game you want to run.

AluminiumWolf said:

Depends on who writes the songs. As the saying goes, history is written by the winners. Afghanis back in the 80s were noble guerrilla fighters getting help from the US fighting the good fight against the Russian War Machine. I love watching their representation in Rambo III considering the state of affairs today. Now those same Afghanis are considered the devil while the incredible US Noble Army protects the rest of the world (and yes I know the US is not the only army there, just the most visible) from their terrorism. And I am sure that many Afghanis consider their warriors to be the noble ones, whether fighting the Russian or US War machine.

Play your stormtroopers the way you want. There is no right or wrong except as it affects your own group. It is up to you to describe them as befits your version of the Star Wars universe.

Personally I look at them as being like marines (first in) with some Army ranger influences. Not on par with SEALs or JTF-2, but definitely better than your average Imperial Army or Navy soldier, which, I believe fits into the description of them for the most part.