I know one of the first Star Wars scenes involve Stormtroopers slaughtering rebel troopers, dropping them with a single shot… and their EotE builds certainly reflect this… but are they too tough? Are they not meant for first tier PCs? Do they represent the faceless 1-shot easy kill minion, or are they to9o much the faceless death the Emperor designed?

Garrett

Personally, I prefer the older view of stormtroopers that seemed to hold sway in the SW "flavor" of the 90's. Stormtroopers are the elite Imperial shock troopers and are a force to be reckoned with. The should be mid-level minions, and the stats in the book seem to hit that on the nose. Freshly minted characters should be afraid of them, especially if they're present in substantial numbers. After a few weeks of play, though, they shouldn't be too bad, especially if the players are smart and keep it narrative.  IF you need something else dangerous, use the stats from some flavor of trooper (Imperial naval or planetary defense force). 

I think in a lot of video games and the WotC versions, they got nerfed to the point of being down-right tame. And even for the default stat block provide, the only place where these guys are too dangerous is the Agi 3 and soak 5.

But again… they're minions with 5 wounds. They will go down easy.

-WJL

LethalDose said:

  <Narrows eyes> 

 I am in the school that Stormtroopers are the elite shock troops of the Empire. With the party in EotE being people trying to make their way in the universe outside of the main reach of the Empire they will very rarely draw the ire of skilled imperial forces. Imperial sector security seems like it is going to be more of a consistent threat to the players then the elite legions of the Emperor. Of course that could all change if the party has a force sensitive or if there obligation ends up too high and they end up on the Empire's bad side. 

I'm on boat with posts #1 and #3 above. They are the elite troopers of the Empire descended from the Clone Troopers. Perhaps not as good as them, but something still elite and professional. We typically saw them going up against the super heroes. When we did see them against just lowly rebels, they kicked ass.

I like my stormtroopers elite and tough assault troops as they should be. Only mid to upper level characters should think about going against a squad of them.

Thing is, the 'cool side' is the one with the fewer, more powerful units. Nazis vs. Russians or Americans, Nazi toy soldiers outsell Commies and Plutocrats massively.

The dynamic we want, I would argue, is that seen in the X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter match up. The Imperials use cheap, mass produced, disposable ships and pilots, while the Rebels have better trained pilots flying fewer, more powerful fighters. In individualism and flair vs. conformity and discipline, Star Wars is on the side of individualism.

Similarly, Stormtroopers are cheap, mass produced, disposable goons whose role in life is to be gunned down in droves by the smaller numbers of higher quality Rebel troopers. h

That is, if you actually WANT people to prefer being the rebels… h

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ImperialStormtrooperMarksmanshipAcademy

Yeah, I went back to WEG's 2nd Ed, R&E rulebook to see what it said about stormtroopers . The first line is "The Emperor's elite shocktroops" and then discusses their ubiquitousness (is that a word?). Anyway, you are also correct in that the stats don't make them particularly threatening opponents under that system.

If you want the incompetent "loltroopers" that are the butt of the frequent jokes you mentioned, that's fine. Nerf the stormtroopers into irrevelance/incompetence/wherever and balance them as you see fit in your campaign.
I personally think that making them just "one more flavor of inconsequential minions" is boring as shit.

This is my opinion, and has empirically worked for me very well in my games.

I view the stormtroopers as being equivalent to the 3rd Reich's Waffen SS. Well equipped and well trained, in addition to being the Fuhrer's/Emperor's 'personal' force. I see these both as archetypical examples of an elite infantryman. An enemy type that is more dangerous and disciplined than a typical grunt, but still using direct warfare tactics, as compared to the "special" tactics that a commando might use.  Whether or not this is historically accurate is irrelevant, the popular [mis]conceptions 

The goal is for my players to see these enemies and think "oh wait, this enemy is harder than a navy/army trooper, maybe the fight is worth a second thought/more caution/alternative strategy". Viewing them and treating them as I've described achieves the goal My players like the level of challenge, and I like having an enemy that's identifiable and a cut above a usual grunt.

-WJL

I don't mind stormtroopers being tougher than other adversaries. I like where they are in the game. Maybe too much soak because when you do hit them they should go down.

I think they illustrate a bigger concern. Give anyone a few ranks (3-4 range) and they will never miss. I think they need to up the to hit difficulties so the game is more "realistic" for fights between more experienced combatants. Seeing as how they gave adversaries the new talent I hope there is more defense for the PCs coming up.

LethalDose said:

But the Waffen SS are the most popular army in WWII wargaming! Even though they are SS! I am sure the flames of war people didn't set out to produce materials about how cool Nazis are, but that is what they do. Osprey produce HUNDREDS of books on the Waffen SS and their cool camouflage schemes.

If you make Stormtroopers the equivalent of the Waffen SS, everyone will want to be the Stormtroopers and not the Rebels, which is ass backwards for a Star Wars game! h

Well… after reading Allegiance and Choices of One I have become to the conclusion that Stormtroopers are beardy. They kick ass, have skill and good equipment. Sure there are crap troopers, but considering that all stormtroopers look alike to non-troopers (a nice point made in Zahn's Choices of One) its hard to know the good from the hilarious. In other words, stormtroopers can both be crap - on some unimportant backwater planet that only get the dregs from "stormtrooper academy" or the few remaining degenerate clones left over from the clone wars (if anyone remain - both spaarti and kamino clones). Although on more important worlds, better trained troops will be positioned, but they'll look the same as the jokes - all white and covered in plastic (right… right… ceramic laminate composite malarky). I think this opens for variation and uncertainty - two things I love in roleplaying games - players get shit scared and start to think - or remain in character and the rest of the party must rescue them - or patch them up fingers crossed, hoping they won't bleed out…

Barefoottourguide said:

Depends in part on how you're running them.  If you're running them in minion groups greater than 2, then stormtroopers can be quite deadly due to the way Minion skills work, especially if your PCs aren't using intelligent tactics (like seeking out cover) or are built to absorb lots of damage, and even the later only lasts so long.

Cyril put our group (4 PCs) up against a total of 6 Stormtroopers in sets of 2 (3 separate Minion Groups) and a Stormtrooper Sergeant, and we made pretty quick work of them.  Though one of the first things most of us did was seek out cover, with the exception of the Trando Marauder, who soon followed suit after getting blasted a few times.  We didn't have much trouble taking them out, though everyone except my Force Exile took damage from the fight (loving that Sense Ongoing Control Upgrade).

I actually kind of like that Stormtroopers can actually be a threat to the PCs in this game instead of an inconvenient speed-bump they were in the various d20 games.  They may go down quick due to being minions (provided you're using something with more punch than a regular blaster pistol), but if you take them lightly you could end up paying for it.

Donovan Morningfire said:

+1 to this.  Succinct and well-stated.

-WJL

Can we at least agree that the average Rebel Soldier should be better than the average Stormtrooper? h

Cause seriously, when it is The Elite vs. The Horde, everyone want to be The Eilte. So the bad guys had better be The Horde. h

AluminiumWolf said:

AluminiumWolf said:

Why the heck does the popularity of the Wafen SS have anything to do with how strong we want our Stormtroopers to be in an RPG? If making them strong makes them too cool (that is a huge leap of logic by the way) and your players want to be near mindless Stormtroopers, then just say no. If you can't say no, you end up with a pretty boring military-only campaign with your players being ordered around by their henchmen officers.

I think it is fine to compare Stormtroopers to old German elite troops since obviously that was one of their influences. Google, "Stormtrooper", and you get more then just Star Wars results.

AluminiumWolf said:

No not at all.

We can look at all kinds of movie evidence that Stormtroopers are much better then Rebel soldiers. We have scenes from the opening of Episode IV and the Battle of Hoth. The only time Rebels can hang with Stormtroopers in the movies are the rebel "commandos" in Return of the Jedi. But of course they aren't the typical rebel soldiers.
 

If we make a change such as you are suggesting, then we are starting to play something else other then Star Wars. Want us to next agree that Jedi should not be powerful? The Death Star should not be able to destroy a planet with one blast since that could be detrimental to a role playing game? If we start changing what IS Star Wars purely for gaming balance or purposes, then we end up with an RPG that is not really Star Wars. Might as well use the game system to create your own original universe instead.

Elite vs. Horde? Describing the underdog extremely outnumbered Rebels as the Horde is not really appropriate.

PS: I think your outlook is being too influenced by MMO's which DO need game mechanics for balance. I've played a large percentage of MMO's and I hate it when one "Class" or weapon is so much better or cooler then others that everyone running around is a duplicate of everyone else. That doesn't translate at all to a pencil and paper game in my opinion.

Sturn said:

If the Rebels are outmatched in both Quantity and Quality, they are just fucked. h

When Palestinian kids play Israelis vs. Palestinians, everyone wants to be the Israelis. That is just how people are wired. h