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Venthrac said:
Slipping in the tub, not so much.
Umm…except that people die from slipping and hitting their head. Which I don't think is less severe than someone stealing a pdf.
But enough about that. People that pirate weren't going to support the book anyway. Most Fans of a product will support it.
Plenty of musicians are still making millions of dollars and people having stealing mp3s for over a decade.
Keep in mind that criticizing the model now is a good thing, as it is still far enough in advance that maybe, just maybe FFG can change their mind and instead release the later books as supplements, hopefully of the same length, just with MORE in them, more setting or whatever instead of 2-3 chapters of near cut and paste rules.
Without Signature
So then we can have a thread about "why should I have to buy some book on fringers when I just want to play Jedi?" Ugh.
"You can't win. But there are alternatives to fighting." Obi-Wan Kenobi on internet arguments
Manchu said:
So then we can have a thread about "why should I have to buy some book on fringers when I just want to play Jedi?" Ugh.
Haha. Post of the day, right there.
Venthrac said:
Except that piracy is actually a serious and widespread issue that harms both the large and small RPG publisher alike, just as it harms home movie sales and video game sales.
Slipping in the tub, not so much.
There are pirates who pirate because the don't want to pay. Those most likely will not become paying customers. Also there is the "blowing it out of proportion" scaremongering by the companies, when the reallity may be different:
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2010/04/us-government-finally-admits-most-piracy-estimates-are-bogus/
Publishers are really good at pulling out numbers out of their arses. 98% of statistics are made up on the spot, including this one. Now, I am not saying that the piracy does not exist, just that as a threat it may be much lower and the sheer greed of the companies may be the fuel for such made up statistics crying about piracy. As I've mentioned earlier in this thread, a mere scapegoat.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Then there are pirates who do it because their money is tight. If you want them to become customers, you have to do something.
Which approach is better for you if you have problems with money?
This one? (Black Crusade for $60 per physical book, $30 per PDF)
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite_sec.asp?eidm=154&esem=2
Or this one? (Pathfinder $50 physical book, $10 PDF)
http://paizo.com/products/btpy88yj?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Core-Rulebook
Ignore the $10 difference between those two books. Mind you, that I'm not directly comparing two different RPGs, but two pricing policies. Setting high price for PDF and crying that it does not sell well is stupid. Even Steam (digital PC games distributor) has learned that deals like 50% or 75% off generate more income, because the profit from few sold units for high prices is outweighted by the profit from a lot of sold units for lower prices.
But clueless company is clueless.
Take from that what you want.
"Ubi concordia, ibi victoria."
-Publius Syrus
About "pirating" copyrighted material. Its a difficult issue due to the notion of private property and ownership. These notion are so embedded in our culture and society that even thinking outside this box is both difficult and often ridiculed.
Yochai Benkler's book "Wealth of Networks" (yes I assume its a play on Adam Smith's book "Wealth of Nations" from the 1750s) talks about that and economy in the age of internet and a more or less global (and digital) society. Worth a read.
Furthermore the logic of copyright economy is made fun of in this TED in a rather not-so-kind way. Worth a watch.
Its interesting that the pro Laissez-faire also favour protectionism, which is integral to their notion of a "free market"… which in turn makes it not free. Instead its controlled by oligarchs. Sounds like a conspiracy? Perhaps, but that doesn't make it wrong. I am not saying there are a mighty few sitting the conspiring "against us" so to speak, but that this power is collected in a very little minority is not a good thing. At least not in my opinion.
This said, one cannot change this over night, but its an important perspective to include in the debate.
This won't change Lucas' control over his stuff, won't change the license nor the possibility of us getting PDF books of this rpg. Not by much anyways.
"What about the future…? We can only hope, we cannot however account for the minutiae of the quanta, as all accidents in an infinite space are inevitable."
klaymen, I'm sorry but using that report in relation to gaming in disingenuous, that report was related to software and music piracy. In the gaming market the margins are extremely low. Additionally the numbers are vastly different.
For example, if Coldplay sells 9 million albums, 50 thousand people illegally downloading the album has very little actually effect on profit. However if 500-800 people opt to not buy a RPG supplement which might sell 10-12 thousand copies (if a gaming company was extremely fortunate), that's a huge hit. Take a game like Starblazer Adventures which was huge hit among indie games, it sold around 2,000 copies I think… If you even have 200 gamwrs who might be inclined toward a purchase of it opt to download via torrent or usenet, that's like $6000 of lost revenue.
Without Signature
Still chances are those who downloaded it wouldn't necessarily buy it anyways, so its only a theoretical loss of profit.
"What about the future…? We can only hope, we cannot however account for the minutiae of the quanta, as all accidents in an infinite space are inevitable."
I don't think the issue with the license is piracy (though ianal, so grain of salt and all). I believe the issue is that pdfs fall under a different license that covers electronic products (that is the consensus on why The One Ring pulled its pdfs, at least).
It's a bit out of touch with the present, but many of these things were developed decades ago, let alone not in the last 5ish years when ebooks and pdfs have taken off.
Previous games: Buried, but not Forgotten and Underworld Rising.
Check out both podcasts at Reckless Dice.
klaymen_sk said:
Venthrac said:
Except that piracy is actually a serious and widespread issue that harms both the large and small RPG publisher alike, just as it harms home movie sales and video game sales.
Slipping in the tub, not so much.
There are pirates who pirate because the don't want to pay. Those most likely will not become paying customers. Also there is the "blowing it out of proportion" scaremongering by the companies, when the reallity may be different:
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2010/04/us-government-finally-admits-most-piracy-estimates-are-bogus/
Publishers are really good at pulling out numbers out of their arses. 98% of statistics are made up on the spot, including this one. Now, I am not saying that the piracy does not exist, just that as a threat it may be much lower and the sheer greed of the companies may be the fuel for such made up statistics crying about piracy. As I've mentioned earlier in this thread, a mere scapegoat.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Then there are pirates who do it because their money is tight. If you want them to become customers, you have to do something.
Which approach is better for you if you have problems with money?
This one? (Black Crusade for $60 per physical book, $30 per PDF)
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite_sec.asp?eidm=154&esem=2
Or this one? (Pathfinder $50 physical book, $10 PDF)
http://paizo.com/products/btpy88yj?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Core-Rulebook
Ignore the $10 difference between those two books. Mind you, that I'm not directly comparing two different RPGs, but two pricing policies. Setting high price for PDF and crying that it does not sell well is stupid. Even Steam (digital PC games distributor) has learned that deals like 50% or 75% off generate more income, because the profit from few sold units for high prices is outweighted by the profit from a lot of sold units for lower prices.
But clueless company is clueless.
Take from that what you want.
Go complain to Lucas. The fact that the pdf is not able to be obtained is due to him. Complaining more and more here will not better your cause. FFG is not to blame. I dont know how many times this has to be said.
Without Signature
Doc, the Weasel said:
I don't think the issue with the license is piracy (though ianal, so grain of salt and all). I believe the issue is that pdfs fall under a different license that covers electronic products (that is the consensus on why The One Ring pulled its pdfs, at least).
It's a bit out of touch with the present, but many of these things were developed decades ago, let alone not in the last 5ish years when ebooks and pdfs have taken off.
You are right, and for the umpteenth time and anyone who hasn't read this whole thread.
FFG DOES NOT HAVE the rights to make a PDF. Lucasarts treats PDF copies of games as the same thing as any Electronic, AKA, Computer game. Hence the license is covered by computer game licenses, which are far beyond the ability of a Tabletop company to acquire. After all, if WOTC, owned by Hasbro, couldn't afford it, do you think FFG could either? Plus it might not even be available because other companies have the Electronic rights.
So yeah, start a petition to Lucas Arts, complain to them, write actual letters and mail them (This is important, email will be mostly ignored, actual letters tend to get read). It probably won't matter, but it's worth a try.
Without Signature
Dulahan said:
Doc, the Weasel said:
I don't think the issue with the license is piracy (though ianal, so grain of salt and all). I believe the issue is that pdfs fall under a different license that covers electronic products (that is the consensus on why The One Ring pulled its pdfs, at least).
It's a bit out of touch with the present, but many of these things were developed decades ago, let alone not in the last 5ish years when ebooks and pdfs have taken off.
You are right, and for the umpteenth time and anyone who hasn't read this whole thread.
FFG DOES NOT HAVE the rights to make a PDF. Lucasarts treats PDF copies of games as the same thing as any Electronic, AKA, Computer game. Hence the license is covered by computer game licenses, which are far beyond the ability of a Tabletop company to acquire. After all, if WOTC, owned by Hasbro, couldn't afford it, do you think FFG could either? Plus it might not even be available because other companies have the Electronic rights.
So yeah, start a petition to Lucas Arts, complain to them, write actual letters and mail them (This is important, email will be mostly ignored, actual letters tend to get read). It probably won't matter, but it's worth a try.
Thank you! :)
Hopefully they can read what you wrote lol cause im sure as hell tired of hearing it and tired of explaining it.
Without Signature
Dulahan said:
So yeah, start a petition to Lucas Arts, complain to them, write actual letters and mail them (This is important, email will be mostly ignored, actual letters tend to get read). It probably won't matter, but it's worth a try.
The issue there is company (Bioware perhaps) having that electronic license. If it's exclusive, then it's not just a matter of Lucas Arts just recrafting the language on the RPG license (and why would they add more for the same price). They also have to negotiate with the other company to allow it to happen.
I think we are going to just accept that this is a no pdf line. (I'm a One Ring fan as well, so I've already swallowed this pill).
Previous games: Buried, but not Forgotten and Underworld Rising.
Check out both podcasts at Reckless Dice.
Ski said:
Thank you! :)
Hopefully they can read what you wrote lol cause im sure as hell tired of hearing it and tired of explaining it.
No, no. When the game goes to final print and hits the shelves, and people who were previously unaware of the game buy it at their local store, then they rush home to sign on here, we'll have to go through these arguments about PDFs, lack of Force focus, and having to buy three core rulebooks aaaaaaaaallllllllll over again.
Suddenly I have a headache.
Without Signature
GoblynByte said:
Ski said:
Thank you! :)
Hopefully they can read what you wrote lol cause im sure as hell tired of hearing it and tired of explaining it.
No, no. When the game goes to final print and hits the shelves, and people who were previously unaware of the game buy it at their local store, then they rush home to sign on here, we'll have to go through these arguments about PDFs, lack of Force focus, and having to buy three core rulebooks aaaaaaaaallllllllll over again.
Suddenly I have a headache.
HAHAHAHAH sooo true. Okay fair enough. When it goes to print make sure we are here to fend off the mobs ;)
Without Signature
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