thejughead said:

Unfortunately that would put them at one point more than the Heavy Lasers and takes a hero slot.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Sure, but with nine wounds and five lasers plus a Panzerfaust that needs no reload and Assault it's probably is worth the cost.

What I don't get is how Sigrid's Laser PISTOL does more damage against infantry than the Laser Grenadiers and Heavy Laser Grenadiers walking around with giant power packs on their backs. Explicame that, por favor.

I'd take anything at this point. The entire utility of lasers is based on a lucky string of one-third hit chances. If you're going to create a luck-based unit, why not maintain the "re-roll forever" mechanic from Tactics? The chance of having a string of lucky hits would make me actually consider them, rather than the expectation of two hits with the first roll, and maybe a third hit on the exploding mechanic. (Which all subsequently get absorbed through cover/armor saves after moving a unit within 12" range to use their crappy weapons.)

If they don't want to maintain the Tactics re-roll mechanic or bring the dice rolls up with Sigrid's rolls, what about ignoring cover? Fluff-wise, a laser weapon is going to demand pinpoint accuracy to hit. And if it's on target, it's on freaking target. Phasers get to ignore armor saves, so why not let lasers ignore cover saves?

Uff, my envy of the Allied army is strong. Freaking rocket punches and UGLs and phasers and walkers with an extra machine gun.

Duckshirt said:

Sigrid is a Hero… she gets prototype Uber weapons.

Duckshirt said:

I feel ya. Personally, I don't mind the exploding dice mechanic of Tactics for Lasers. It's countered by the short range, and in Warfare would be further tamed by Suppression.

Yes, the chances of getting hits on re-rolls is so slim that lasers are practically useless without the re-rolls that you get from a Sustained Attack action. That's why, in Warfare, I advocated dropping the 'laser' ability from the regular lasers (not the heavy ones; they remain as stated) and doubling their attack dice vs. infantry.

Um, as for 'pin point accuracy,' might I remind you that a bullet needs that too? Which is why grenade and splash weapons ignore cover: They aren't 'pin point' accurate, and don't need to be. (Although I would have had and splash only nerf one hit of cover: Hard cover is and remains notoriously difficult to winkle people out of with artillery).

Duckshirt said:

You are looking at it from the point of view of the weapon.  Her stat line takes into account her skill, valor, and Heroine abilities.

Bah, we know it's all about the weapons :)  It's why Lara's MG44 Zwei are the same as the HRG. It's why Action Jackson carries the same stat line for his 60W Phasers. They don't get extra dice to account for skill, valor and heroic abilities. 

According to the Laser Pistole fluff it's a second generation model that uses cadmium batteries or some such technology. Perhaps that technology will find its way into an elite Axis counterpart for the British Commandos/French Foreign Legion. Or maybe they'll just give us three man teams that only get one weapon instead.

I swear, if that flyer has a laser on it I'm going to shoot it down myself.

 I'm no longer listening to Warfare players that say lasers are useless anymore.  I played a game last night as the axis, I built it specifically with lasers in mind, I have never in my 2 years of playing Tactics and now Warfareplayed axis (I have never played a game as any other than allies) and the list rocked.  I did really well and the lasers were really decent.  So I don't want to hear anymore if an axis rookie can make them work ;)

 And my list if anyone is wondering 

Sturmpioniere w Manfred

Heavy Laser Grens

Laser Grens

Laser Grens

Battle Grens

Snipers

Wotan

Totenmeister

Axis Zombies x 4

Meaning you got lucky. Normal dice rolls make laser grenadiers (you will note I advocate no changes to the heavies) not worth the 21 points. Every other squad that has such a short range shoots more often (shotguns, or Sov assault rifles) and usually has grenades or some such to damage vehicles (and often nerf cover). My first Warfare battle I got lucky with the lasers, too, but I knew that it was luck, and they've rarely been worth the 21 points since. (Please note that my opponents aren't stupid enough to allow me to get Sustained Attacks with said unit, either - they know what happens if I do.)

The least FFG could do is knock the laser grenadiers' point value down to, say, 14.

Warboss Krag said:

Thanks for downgrading my tactical ability, but no it was not luck.  They are ok as is if used correctly. Thankfully our axis players know how to use them so I don't hear the useless whine from them, but I did need to see it for myself and they're fine.

 Not to mention, when everyone else is struggling to wound Winter Child, all the axis players will be happy their lasers can cut right through him.

blkdymnd said:

Bah, UGLs will handle Armor 4 Infantry just fine.

And didn't you just prove our point? Lasers can be useful, but you have to design your entire platoon around making them so :) Or, you'll need to attach a hero to the squad so it can survive long enough for some sustained attacks. I think our argument is that to use a lot of the cool Axis units, you need to design the rest of your platoon around supporting them. You have to design a laser platoon, a gorilla platoon, or a zombie platoon. You're not just bringing those units along for the ride. 

For comparison, I think the Allies benefit from having fantastic stand alone units that can get mixed together in more creative fashions. SSU looks to also bring a number of specialized units, but time will tell whether the Commissars give them enough flexibility, or if we'll just see the same lists popping up over and over again.

In conclusion, the Axis units look badass and I thoroughly enjoy the way they look on the table!

 I didn't desIgn the platoon around them because I had to. Per most of these posters, lasers are useless ergo a whole platoon of lasers would be ultra useless.  They weren't, they were fine and played commendably.  I could have mixed it up a bit and they still would have been just fine.

My point being that as they stand laser grenadiers don't work well unless they can deliver sustained fire attacks at close range (which is all the range they have). That means they need a hero with them to allow them to survive long enough to deliver, as well as getting rid of the inevitable suppression they should pick up along the way.

A large game is more favorable for their deployment; in smaller games, there aren't enough other units threatening the enemy to allow the laser grenadiers to get close enough to do their work. I note that the game in question where they did so well, was a large game where the lasers had that necessary bulk of other targets to soak for them. Since I usually play 200-250 point games, I usually end up with the choice between getting the laser grenadiers or a Heinrich walker…hands down, the Heinrich with its flakvierling.