Andor said:

Although in all seriousness, its not really even hard "RP." The doctrines are highly mechanical, and otherwise only offer a vague fluff explanation as to what they actually mean. A unit could be described as having a "Favoured Foe" when they actually take "Die-Hards." The training doctrines are very abstract, and RP wise, a regiment can be described as anything.

Braddoc said:

Okay, now I'm getting the impression that you're being contrary on purpose. Finesse doesn't cheapen any skills, true, but it cheapens Agility, which is crucial for a melee specialist. Also, it cheapens a total of 20 talents, 9 of which have their prices completely unchanged from before because their primary aptitude is WS, notably Sure Strike, Swift and Lightning Attack.

Yes, the very same talents you're complaining cost more now. They do not.

JuankiMan said:

My bad, but like I said, I don't have my book here right now.  Ambidextrous is BS/WS aptitudes, so we lost there, that's for sure…

Also "….Agility, which is crucial for a melee specialist….."

Again, that switch of aptitude made the ST a ranged specialist, not a melee one; the only way Agility is important now is that  a storm trooper must now rely on dodge to get out of harm's way rather than the more potent Parry. 

Braddoc said:

Whether Parry is more potent than Dodge is a matter of debate. Parry is indeed easier to raise through equipment, but Dodge is crucial for the melee specialist because you cannot parry whatever return fire the enemy might throw at you while you're closing in into melee. Also, until you get a weapon with a power field you really don't wan't to try and parry an enemy power weapon. Also, some attacks cannot be parried at all while almost everything can be dodged.

My bad, but like I said, I don't have my book here right now. Ambidextrous is BS/WS aptitudes, so we lost there, that's for sure…

Ambidextrous is also T1. You "lost" a whole 200 XP there.

Also "….Agility, which is crucial for a melee specialist….."

Again, that switch of aptitude made the ST a ranged specialist, not a melee one; the only way Agility is important now is that a storm trooper must now rely on dodge to get out of harm's way rather than the more potent Parry.

How is Parry more potent than Dodge? Yes, a decent weapon can grant you a few points, but I've yet to see someone parry a lasbolt outside of Star Wars.

IMO, the weapon specialist is the allround guardsman with some added shooty-ness. The Stormtrooper is the shooty specialist with some added allroundness, but essentially, that's their job. They are hunter-killers in perfection - they go somewhere, shoot something and move back to base. Crawling through mud, hiding for weeks and digging trenches are things that happen to other guardsmen.

Also, yes, doctrines that provide more aptitudes are extremely powerful. There's hardly a system out there where learning cost reductions are not among the most powerful traits. Doctrines that provide you with a greater supply of expendable stuff are pretty nice, but reduced learning costs will always more than pay for themselves unless the system is heavily reliant on equipment over character skills.

 Why not replace agility, after all they're in carapace armor, with WP? Storm Troopers/Grenadiers are usually the best trained, best geared, and most prepared to deal with horrors of war. This would allow the ST to be the fearless shooty guy. 

Manyfist said:

There are ways of getting it during regiment creation. I think most people who have played a 40k RPG before know how debilitating a failed fear save can be and will most likely take things that improve their chances of passing it. For example when I genned a storm trooper after the update I chose Schola for the +3 wp and unshakeable faith, Maverick to gain resistance fear, and sharpshooter to get both deadeye shot and ballistic skill so I could swap the extra ballistic skill aptitude for willpower. I then spent my starting xp on jaded.

So I have a stormtrooper with 43 wp, +10 to fear tests, rerolls on fear tests, and immunity to fear from everything but deamons and warp events. Fearless may be something I eventually want to get but I think this is a very solid combination for a fresh starting character. This way I can spend all future xp on increased combat effectiveness.

Edit: Every career has either ballistic skill, defense, or willpower. So taking sharp shooters in order to pick up willpower on the classes that don't start with it is a no brainer. Litteraly everyone can start off with the above setup at character creation.

On the other hand side, stormtroopers are still humanly-squishy. Having them buy Dodge and Step Aside at no ability would be somewhat worrying as well - and despite the way fear tests may ruin your day, sluggas ruin it even more and will appear more frequently. This is the Imperial Guard, not the Ordo Malleus, after all.

As for the original topic, I think I'm content with the present aptitude allocation. Despite what the name says, the weapon specialist strikes me as rather more allround than the stormtrooper.

 Purity Seals are still on the regiment gear list. Do they exist yet?

Are you questioning the efficacy of Imperial purity seals! Your impure thoughts reveal you heretic! *chainsword*

On the other hand, what do they do?

 Not like my opinion matters but here's some thoughts that me and my friends have discussed regarding these changes and complaints.

So the Stormtrooper seems to be a hot-button issue here. If not about his armor than about his point entirely. There seems to be a big contradictory argument that they're supposed to represent the tabletop so they have to have their carapace armor, but unlike the Tabletop you don't have a full squadron of nothing but Stormtroopers (or at the least, some Stormtroopers and a bunch of comrades). If people get their panties so much into a bunch about symantic details maybe FFG should just remove the entry entirely (maybe more of the specialists who also don't make sense) and leave them for another time or maybe have a Stormtrooper regiment where everyone is outfitted. I'd like to think I'm a big 40k fan, been playing since about 3rd edition and so has my group, but none of us were really up in arms about either the Stormtrooper being an option in the first place (A Stormtrooper NOT of the Schola Progenium?!?!?! My suspension of disbelief!) or about the armor change. Like many who had suggested before, we just look at them as a type of grenadier or veteran who has been attached to the unit. He's not an actual member of the legit Stormtroopers but rather someone who is either in the process of training or, for more flexible fluff, someone who just shares the experience and design of one. The fluff of the tabletop game is being, ever most unfortunately, sacrificed in the name of RPG gaming. I mean this is hardly the first time one of the RPG's haven't lived up to the tabletop's expectations, nor has even the original Inquisitor and WFRP games these books share heritage with. Some things work in the tabletop but not in the RPG, I think that to base a game solely on the very loose abstractions found in 40k is asking for trouble and I'd rather have a game that's meant to provide a better RPG experience.

I don't see a problem in krak grenades having trouble injuring a Russ' front or a Baneblade's everywhere. It's a grenade. If you want to make better certain the death of a vehicle then you should look into the many other anti-armor weapons in the game instead of relying on the most basic one of them all. And am I the only one who, when seeing a Russ approach them, drastically changes their tactics instead of just running towards the front of it?

I don't know about Hunter Killer regiments having all Sentinels, something just smells bad about that. Why would I take a Hellhound when I could have a big-ol squad of Sentinels stomping about ("lol squad coherency?") assuming your commrades got them as well which I don't know how that would work exactly. When I originally read it I thought it was that the squad had access to a Sentinel to run around to a target's flank (like a vehicle's side) while the rest of the squadron tries to agitate the target towards them. I thought it was about squad synergy rather than everyone getting the same goodies. As for everyone having Operate that just means anyone can drive the Sentinel when the time is needed, plus they could acquire other vehicles during their mission and actually use them. I mean do people think the Recon regiment should come with SENTINELS FOR EVERYBODY as well? What about Armored Regiments when you have more men/commrades than a Russ can carry? Just give them another Russ? I always just thought the vehicle was another tool to use, not common equipment taken for granted.

But hey I really like the changes so far, keep up the good work FFG. 

Also yeah we need those purity seals. I don't know what they do but I know my Penitent Drop Troops are COVERED in them.

There's no contradiction--it's known that Storm Troopers are occasionally attached to other Imperial Guard units individually as well as by squad.

Frankly, I think you're exaggerating the degree of upset over it.  Vehicle armor and SI was argued for even more strongly than this ever was.  It's nonetheless just *odd* that Storm Troopers don't start with Storm Trooper Carapace.  Assuming there was a power level issue with the Good stuff, the better idea would be to instead make ST Carapace available at Common Craftsmanship.  That delivers an okay chop of power level without the strangeness of Storm Troopers going into battle wearing police gear.

Oh, and you are aware that some IG regiments field Storm Trooper equivalents, right?  Like Cadia's Kasrkin.

 I'm not familiar where Storm Troopers are attached on an individual basis, but since we seem to be using the tabletop as a baseline the only composition of Storm Troopers is on a per-squad basis, the same goes for abhumans. I frankly don't care about the mix because I don't care about following the fluff of 40k to the "t", but that said Imperial squad composition seems to fit a standardized model at least on the tabletop. 

And yes I'm aware about Storm Trooper equivalents, it's why I brought up Grenadiers which are exactly that. The Karsrkin are the same in that they're not technically Storm Troopers but mechanically speaking share the same stats and levels of training. They're just not selected few of the Schola Progenium who are attached to regiments.

I think it honestly boils down to a priority of emphasis. People here seem to emphasis that what makes a Storm Trooper a Storm Trooper is the armor he wears, whereas someone like myself views him as the apex of Imperial training. This is why I don't care so much that the armor they start with isn't the same as they're shown on the tabletop. I mean if it's changed to carapace I'm not going to complain and cry, I just don't think it's that big of an issue. 

And I fully agree that the Vehicle quirks were a much higher priority to fix than this issue, I'm just trying to offer a differing opinion on this detail. 

 My final input:

Bolt  weapons now need a minor buff to be worthwhile. Storm Trooper should have his armor back. Purity Seals lack rules. The Tauros needs to be added as a vehicle. Bring the regiment customization points back up to 30. Add separate  Male and Female Name tables. Bring back the Dark Heresy tables for Mutation.

Great job with fixing vehicles, adding variable settings, making the Storm Trooper and Comissar have sensible aptitudes, listening to our input, and just overall being so responsive and on top of things, fellas.

Plushy said:

Bolters are fine

ST already get best armor, upping it would make it even harder to injure them.

They need more vehicles than just the Tauros

I agree 26 is odd #

Agreed

Diagree, there's already minor mutations that you can pick from. However it also said that should you get mutations, you commissar is gonna pay you a visit, and if the entire regiment gets more than its fair share if mutants witch-hunters appear.