As an American, I like to overlook most of the metric system. I have no idea how much a kilogram is, to me, it's the primary unit of measure used to determine drugs. Low and behold, this fine gentleman Darklordofbunnies, goes and points out how much 35kg is in pounds. That's fucking retarded. Now before anyone bites my head off for making the following comparison, I think the dimensions of the weapons being compared are quite similar, as are their uses. The FGM-148 Javelin ATGM with it's launch control unit weight in around 18kg. That's a big friggan missile too. Again, I get that 40K isn't exactly grounded in reality or anything, but some things are just too off the walls. I think the Missile Launcher should probably get cut down to 20kg.

Varn said:

How is that retarded? It's relevant if someone doesn't actually know how heavy 35kg is.

Also, 1kg is equal to 2.2 pounds. I say that just to spite you.

I think he was referring to how heavy the weight is now that it's expressed in units he can relate to, not the metric system. A 77lbs tube is retarded if it's supposed to be balanced on one shoulder for firing. The mental image of an entire tank hunting crew tipping over while trying to draw a bead on a moving tank is hilarious.

Ok so now that we have the Missile launcher in our sights (sorry for the pun,) I figured I would mention other weapons that feel/seem off.

The below are my opinions, but I am basing them on the text in Deathwatch, Only War, Dark Heresy and Black Crusade.

Plasma gun at 18kg.   That is 36 pounds.   for a rifle!

Meltagun at 15kg or 34 pounds… Again a rifle.

Sniper Rifle, Too light at 5kg  Should be more like 8 to 10 kg

Autogun too heavy at 5kg should be 4 to 4.5kg   Minimal change

I think the Stub and Auto Pistols should go down in weight but that is nit-picking again.

Man Portable Lascannon has issue similar to Missile launcher (Deathwatch the weight of the backpack is included, that weight is not removed from the Impy Guard version.)

Delete weights from Vehicle only weapons.  List them as "Vehicle" instead of a weight.

Hand Flamer.   Even with a chunk of metal to protect the hand the hand flamer is too small to mass in at 8 pounds.  Suggest 2.5kg

Grenade launcher is too heavy as well.   a standard single shot grenade launcher should be in the 4.5-6 kg range.  This would bring it in-line with the Auxiliary Grenade Launcher.

Mortar is, like a Missile launcher a tube.  It also has a base however (unlike the missile launcher)  Suggest 20kg with a note that can be broken into 2 10 kg loads to ease encumberance.   It takes 6 Full rounds to set up a Mortar in structured time.  Espically given the much more massive Mole Mortar is only 10kgs heavier currently.

Missile (Frag, Krak, Minefield and Scatter) all are WAY too light.  In Deathwatch they are in the 2-3 kg range and I think even that is too light.   Suggest 4-8 kg for the various missiles.

Mortar rounds should be between 1.5-2.5kg.   Also while their damage should be similar to the similar Grenade their blast radius should be greater (most are.) 

Either Needle Rifle needs an increase in weight or all the basic Las rifles need a decrease in weight suggest bumping Needle Rifle up to 3.5kg.  

Chainsword is good but I think the Eviscerator should have it's weight reduced to 10kg.

Power maul should increase in weight to 5kg or more.   at 3.5kg the weapon can not have any sort of defensive capabilties.  IE if you block with it, the maul would be destroyed.  

I will cover the armor in another post

Ok so here is my portion on Impy Guard armor.

1st I suggest the creation of a Talent.  "Trained by The Imperial Guard"    This would be granted by the WORLD during regiment creation.  

This talent has two aspects. 

1) it increases the CARRY weight by 1 rank on chart 1-7.  Ie if your Sum of SB and TB is 6, for the purpose of Carry weight it would =7 instead.

2) It grants the "lighter" weight of the armor I am proposing below.   

Characters who do not have the "Trained byt he Imperial Guard" talent, use the heavier weight and have a lower carry weight capability.

Flak Helmet   Weight should be 2.0/1.5

Flak Gauntlets should weight 1.0/1.0

Light Flak Cloak should weight 4.0/3.5

Flak Vest should weight 5/3.5

Flak Cloak should weight 8.0/6.5

Flak Coat should weigh 5.0/4.0

Complete set of Flak Armor should weigh 11kg or 9kg with the Trained by the Imperial Guard talent.

Carapace Armor should have the following weights

Helm should be 2.0/2.0

Gauntlets should be 2.0/1.5

Greaves should be 3.0/2.5kg

Light Carapace suit should be 15.0/11.0 kg

Chestplate should be 7.0/6.0 kg

and Storm Trooper Carapace should be 15.0kg/11.5kg.

Please note that Primitive armor can not be lightened in the way of "Modern" Armor.    This is due to the intrinsic designs of the straps and harnesses included with the armor in question.  

As stated above, This is just my OPINION.   I am planning on re-calculating my players loads with this to see what kind of changes will happen before our next session.   Not that it matters much since they are all riding in a Salamander.

Pappystein said:

Plasma Gun - it contains technology that creates magnetic fields around super-heated plasma, and you expect it not to weigh a lot?

Similar with the Meltagun - it's a weaponised directed microwave generator, so again, that sort of tech would weigh a lot.

MILLANDSON said:

I don't disagree that they should weigh more than a Lasgun for sure.   However they are way too heavy currently.   They are too un-weildly for any but the strongest to properly weild in battle.    If you have any dumbells in your home try holding one (preferably heavier than 6 pounds) in your off hand a foot and a half in front of your other shoulder.    Now try to move around.  Watch your toes and good luck holding that up for any length of time.

And for the record a Melta gun fires sub-molecular Pyrum-Petro gas, not microwaves.  IE it is a focused gas-plasma reaction more akin to a flamer than a "ray gun."    Source Warhammer 40K Wargear pg 9.

The gun uses microwave agitation to weaponise that gas, however, using both microwave agitation and pressure to force the gas into an unstable sub-molecular state that then vapourises anything it's aimed at.

It still requires a hell of a lot of tech, and one of the standard "tropes" in 40k is that complex technology is big and heavy and difficult to use, rather than small and compact.

Just the containment systems used in the guns, ignoring the actual weaponisation components, would be incredibly bulky and heavy. I really don't think they should be reduced in weight.

Now, I'm not saying that the weights are, or are not correct, however:

There is more to carrying something than simply how much it weighs.  The size and shape of an object can put someone off balance and make an otherwise light object more awkward to carry.

Perhaps FFG's intentions with the weight values was to represent how much of a humans carrying capacity would be taken up by the object, rather than it's actual weight.  I have never held a rocket launcher before, but I imagine that even if it was quite light, you have a rocket in one end, a tripod hanging off of it somewhere, one handle that you can't even carry it by in case you accidentally blow the commanding officer away with a slip of the finger, and you can't even sling it over your back because of all your standard gear taking up room.

Some things are just a bastard to carry, even if they are not that heavy, and perhaps the weights represent this.

Actually both plasma and melta guns are quite reasonably sized. Physically the plasma gun is shorter but taller(thicker?) than you standard lasgun, but not by much. Meltaguns are the pinnacle of Dark Age tech and as such are smaller and thinner than your basic lasgun and a roughly on par with a combat shotgun in size. There is no reason to expect them to weight ~40lbs. I keep looking at the weights and getting the feeling that whoever did this at FFG is American and doesn't understand the metric system.

Darklordofbunnies said:

I agree 100% on this…. and as an American I know how easy it is to get lost in conversion factors. I do a LOT of work for a real world Naval Strategy game that is actually used by several countries, I have to convert often from English (US and Imperial systems) and Metric (original and modernized Units form)and sometimes across all four.  

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In the end the game we are here to test, Only War, is about Story, Physics, and Reality.

Story, does the game fit thematically with the Warhammer 40,000 universe?

Is what's described Physically possible

Is the game based in reality, IE you don't have a 500lb man running arround who can not carry 1 pound of weight or have a 50 pound man easily carring said 500lb man!

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In regards to weight of items, currently several are NOT physically possible unless they are made out of Lead, or worse Uranium.   Their physical size could not be made out of "normal" production materials and weigh as much as the books (and this goes back to Dark Heresy in some respects) want us to think they do.

Further, RE Plasma Rifle and Meltagun weights in particular, the Mass Movement Arm (the apparent weight of the weapon at the distance it is held off of center) is crazy bad. There is NO WAY an average HUMAN, let alone one in peek physical shape could carry such a weapon at the prescribed weight in such a manner as to be able to fire it.

Like I said in an earlier post.   Run around for a few minutes holding a 6 pound dumbell in one hand with that arm fully outstretched.  I bet very few of you could do it for more than 3 minutes.    Now Realize, that is about 1/5th the effective weight of the Plasma Rifle and Meltagun.   

I don't have a problem with a plasma rifle being heavier than a Lasrifle or Autogun.  I have a problem with a Plasma rifle being 3.5x heavier than a Lasrifle or Autogun!  a more reasonable weight would be 5kg for a plasma rifle and 5.5kg for a meltagun

Pappystein

Pappystein said:

Other than 'story', I entirely disagree, purely because Warhammer 40k left real-life physics and 'reality' by the side of the road about 25 years ago when the first words for the setting were being written down.

Ignore the "reality" part then, that doesn't mean we ignore the physics. The weights are borked even by the in game rules, stuff is simply to heavy for guardsmen to carry any kind of significant load. We're not asking for a S4 guardsmen to be able to haul 2.4 tons of stuff just a specialist weapon, a backup (lasgun mostly), some ammo, and his basic regimental kit. That's not really feasible RAW so we're petitioning to change that plain and simple, stop arguing against something that makes the game more playable.

again: why no half the weight of everything carried in a rucksack? half the weight of worn armor as well. there is a difference between evenly distributing weight on you body and carrying it in your arms.

I'm a bit busy right now so I can't sit here and write a long post, but there is one thing I'd like to point out.

The M240B GPMG weighs in around 30 pounds. It is a bitch to lug around and use, but it's very possible (I've seen a number of people do it) to aim and fire it from the shoulder. While I cna certainly understand the Plasma and Melta weapons being quite heavy (they are depected as being very large and bulky), I think 30 pounds of weapon really is near the upper limit of what is anywhere near realistic for one man to carry and use. IRL a 240 gunner has an AG to carry most of his spare ammo and barrels, a Plasma or Melta gunner is carrying all his own ammo.

So yes, while I think it's entirely within the realm of 40K for things to be big and heavy and bulky, there is a limit at some point where you just need to step back and say you've gone to far. I think a lot of gear probably needs it's weight reduced, and I think that would go a long way in help solving the whole carry weight issue in general.