Morangias said:

BONE mods don't increase an Ogryn's INT per say, they make him better able to interpret orders and exercise lateral thinking in a limited manner. It's more like lifting the blinkers and allowing him to use his brain in new ways more than making him have more brains; creativity over genius. It also is required ofr Ogryn to lead, so removing the FEL penalty and giving them command and basic tactics as skills would be a better representation. The fact is that BONE mods are augments, which have their own section in the book, and skill advances are not listed as augments and vice versa. I made the smart OGryn commander with all the brain enhancing cyberware I could shunt in his skull, it was ridiculously expensive but he had a 45 INT with a +6 bonus and a +20 to all lore and command tests. That doesn't excuse leaving out an iconic piece of Ogryn life with BONE mods, they deserve a mention somewhere.

Darklordofbunnies said:

If it works as you say it does, then logically all playable Ogryns are Bone'eads by default, as they use their (usually smaller) Int score in exactly the same way as normal human characters. Also, they don't have a Fel penalty, so it'd be hard to remove it.

MILLANDSON said:

Shouldn't we test things? I prefer 10 changes over 10 test runs to 1 change and time is over,

Morangias said:

Sorry, forgot about the FEL penalty existing in my head for the suggestions list. Also: what you describe is players using their INT score the same, not the Ogryn. Just because you allow players with the IQ of a squig to make decisions doesn't make that mechanically correct and any GM with a desire for RP integrity wouldn't allow it. Ogryn can barely speak without a BONE mod and most assuredly do not come up with plans or deviate from what orders they can actually comprehend.

Darklordofbunnies said:

Wrong. What I describe is the Ogryn being able to take all the actions that require an Int roll just like any other character, albeit with a smaller chance of success. Per the rules. This hypothetical Ogryn with Int 45 rolls his Int like any character with Int 45. Hypothetically, I could take this example further and build you an Ogryn with a 95% chance of passing a Logic or Tactica Imperialis test, which would put him amongst the greatest minds of the Imperium. His 75% score on Linguistics also makes him a rather sleek speaker.

Granted, this build is extremely unlikely to come up in play, because it takes thousands of exp spent on very expensive advancements. But it's possible, and that's a problem with the rules. The kind of limitations that you envision the BONE implant removing or alleviating do not exist in the current state of rules. The only thing enforcing the Ogryn as a dumb brute is his abysmal starting Int score and high cost to increase Int and related stuff. Which, as my example shows, doesn't necessarily work.

where is the ogryn love? page 3? please…

Darklordofbunnies said:

I would change 3 to read, Make Int. Penalty -10, but add a large -20 to all Int based skills. EDIT: Maybe -10 to Int skills? But I kind of like the idea that even if they get training in a skill it is only as good as a normal person's basic so I'd like keeping it -20 but that's just me.

The only Int based skill that they might not take the penalty on would be Navigate but I think it is based on using maps as much as just begin able to find your way so I'd still give it the penalty.

I'd add the Bone advance along with adding the increase to Unnatural Toughness and Strength to off set losing the comrades. I'd make the implant give +5 to Int and halve the penalty for using Navigate, Linguistics, and any Common Lore. This doesn't completely negate the -10 to starting Int or their penalty to skills but makes it clear that this ogryn is above average Int… for an ogryn.

I like 2, 4, 5, and 6

Does Fearless cancel out It Dark in dere?