vogue69 said:

… and I'm saying that's as much or more to do with your style of play as anything with the rules. Cover is only too small because the GM doesn't provide sufficently large cover for the ogryn. That's a choice. For most rpg combats I've seen, 40m is pretty far. Again a choice by the GM. The ogryn's melee skills are higher because that's how he was built, again a choice. He may be to stupid to think of his own tactics, but he can follow orders. Again, a choice. These problems stem from a style of play and a way of thinking, not a mechanical issue with the game.

Now, I agree with you initial point, that the way Heavy Wounds are handled in 40k rpg isn't sensible. It never has been. The Hardy talent is such a mechanical no-brainer for ogryn that it should be included in their free Starting Talents.

LuciusT said:

Another proof that Ogryn speciality was poorly executed from the start but it is the point of beta to find weak points and correct them. Till now at least wounds were corrected which give little hope that at the end of beta we will have Ogryn that is both playable and not complete fluff rape.

There's a few things that need to be considered, most notably this:

Ogryn: S 5, T 5, W 3

SM: S 4, T 4, W 1

Orkboy: S 3, T 4, W 1

Guard: S 3 T 3, W 1

Those are the tabletop stats for an Ogryn and a Space Marine as well as an Ork and a normal Imperial Soldier for reference. What this (roughly) means is that an Ogryn is much tougher / more durable than a space marine. I.e. a space marine has 1 hitpoint and an Ogryn has 3.

If you're using this as the basis for the Ogryn in OW that game will be extremely broken. (also spotlight balancing which isn't good especially with extremes like the Ogryn)

DW Marines start at 12k EXP.

Non-DW Marines are probably lower but still in the 10k ish area I guess.

OW Characters start at 300-600EXP

What I'm trying to say is that it's okay for the Ogryn to start out weak than S5, T5, W3 (OW equivalent).

To achieve something that still is somewhat close to Fluff the Ogryn should have the potential to soak up damage like crazy. This is partially what I feel lacking with the current Ogryn. Buying the Hardy Trait is a good way of getting the Ogryn where he should be but giving it to him straight away would make them far to powerfull early on not only unbalancing the game, taking fun away from it by stealing the spotlight but also leaving him little room to grow into.

So what I want all of you to consider is this:
 

How strong should an Ogryn be at no experience spent (or maybe 300).

How strong should he be after 2k, 4k, 6k, 10k EXP?

 Edit:

Personally I feel like the way the Ogryn is right now is a good starting point for a low level Ogryn but I haven't dropped the mathhammer on him yet nor on what he'll look like with a lot of exp to spend.

Musclewizard said:

1.TT stats are made to balance game and that is why SM are much weaker in TT than they are portrayed in fluff. Of course it does not change that in fluff SM will still be weaker and less tougher than an Ogryn.

2. As I said before I am fine with starting wounds of 25+1d5 but S/T unnaturals should be 4 at least to make any sense at all [how can Ork Stormboy be tougher? By the way who decided that Stormboyz should be tougher than other Boyz? Its complete nonsense.] Scrap comrades and Ballistic Skill Aptitude completly and add Hardy and Hammer Blow.

Shadow Walker said:

Except that even THOSE stats are used by the writers to help dictate the relative power!

ANY time an Ogryn has ever shown up in any of the dozens of BL books or even just fluff in the margins I've read, a single one often kills 2-3 members of the Marine's tactical squad.  Or at least injures a few bad enough to put them out of the fight (Much more common).  Put simply, even in the fluff they are Larger AND Stronger than a Marine.  Not better fighters by any means, just larger, tougher, and stronger than a Marine in Power Armor.

For that matter, high powered orks are as well, again, not as skilled necessarily, but always said to be nearly as tough as a Marine… the biggest ones are the size of Ogryn.  But Ogryn are STILL supposed to be as strong and tough as the biggest Orks.  Yes, as strong and tough as the Ork Warbosses.  the ones in this game can't even match up to the Ork Stormboys!  Let alone a Marine.

Ogryn are big, dumb, monsters.  Marines are highly skilled professional soldiers.  That's the difference, the Marine has skills, but not the size.

I'm going to put a summation here of things that would generally make Ogryn better so that people don't have to go back and read everything and so that I can get an accurate tally of good suggestions to email in after the errata change Point out anything that I miss.

1)Allow increase in Unnaturals, possibly depending on rank like Psy Rating.

2)Add a slug option to the ripper gun, probably using Hostile Acquistions rules.

3)Change the Int penalty to -5(-10?) but add a large penalty(-20) Lore checks.

4)Scrap the comrade, it doesn't fit and balances the other buffs.

5)Add ripper saw stats(or use it as a mod).

6)Add weights for Ogryn armor. Maybe an Ogryn specific armor.

I'd also add in some sort of means to implement the Bone ' ead enhancement.

Tremere777 said:

I believe it's represented by buying Int advancements. An Ogryn with average Int of 15 can boost himself to a rather high Int of 35 if he's willing to spend a crapton of exp on it - clearly it represents heavy cognitive implantation, otherwise I'm not really seeing it.

That said, I think I agree that making them take a smaller Int penalty but a big penalty to important Int-based rolls is better than dumping their base stat to oblivion.

Frankly, I'd give them a base Int of 19+d5 and prohibit them from buying Advancements altogether. But that breaks system symmetry…

I'd buy that if cybernetics and bionics hadn't already been included in the game.

@Tremere

There already are some implants that are talents rather than equipment.

I didn't say I was opposed to making it a talent. Did I?

I just don't want to see it…become an imaginary, assumed component of purchasing intelligence advances.

Subskin armor has been included as an available cybernetic "purchase"…shall we remove that and say, hey..just purchase a toughness advance and we'll call it a bionic upgrade?

What about synthmuscle and strength advances?

No. I'm fine with making it an Ogryn only talent…but it should NOT be simply subsumed into intelligence advances.

well there are no further ogryn changes, which sucks big time.

vogue69 said:

Probably because they need time to figure out and test things, to see what the best changes would be.

Surely you'd prefer solid changes, rather than half-arsed ones that get changed multiple times during the beta, right?

Tremere777 said:

Does any of these implants simply increase the Characteristic?

What functions do you envision BONE having beyond simply increasing the Ogryn's Int score?

Note that under the current rules it's theoretically possible to play an Ogryn with Int 45, Unnatural +2 and +20 to all Logic and Lore tests. I'm pretty sure anyone versed in 40k fluff would consider such a character a blasphemy, but it's possible to achieve.