I have to agree that Ogryns don't really need a Comrade. I'd rather have a (quite expensive) Bone 'Ead upgrade.

BYE

I agree…I think that Ogryn should have access to some sort of Bone' Ead advance or cybernetics purchase option.

I also think that they should have access to further levels of unnatural strength and toughness as future advances.

MorioMortis said:

Indeed.

H.B.M.C. said:

Ripper guns are indeed somewhat…huge…40kg? Yeah sounds about right.

Though I think its range could do with a boost. Yes, it's a shotgun. That shoots cartridges the size of your head. Other shotguns also have a 30m range, so maybe 50m for the Ripper? Remember, most firefights happen under 50m, so all the lasgun/regular basic weapon toting IG are getting +10 to hit for short range too..

Another thing to bear in mind is that Ripper guns are meant to have RoF limiters (like Vietnam era M16's) to stop Ogryns excitedly shooting all their ammunition in the first five seconds of combat. Maybe a semi-auto option? Or are we taking as red that the 6 rounds for Full Auto is representative of a burst mode.

I keep having flashes to the 1986 Transformers: the Movie; picturing the scene with Blur trying to get the Dinobots on board of the shuttle to evacuate…  Ogryn "comrade"; or , anybody else really, trying to deal with their "But it Dark in Dere!" rule…

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Praetus said:

Yet another reason that it should be mandatory to attach to a commander.

Dulahan said:

While this is true, vehicles require a fair amount of maintenance and the downsides for relying too heavily on a vehicle are much greater than on counting on a single ogre to handle the bulk of your combats. Also, tanks and troop carriers allow and rely on all the PCs making worthwhile contributions, as opposed to ogryns, which are already an enormously specialized class and would become even more so if they were revised to follow the fluff more closely. That being said, I agree that it would probably be best as far as cohesion between fluff and rules are concerned if Ogryn was not a PC class, but they are also far too characterful to remove.

Tremere777 said:

Honestly I figured that's exactly what the player ogryns would be, normal ogryns are so dense as to really kill a lot opportunity for them to engage in encounters, the Bone'Ead upgrade makes them smart enough to function on a level closer to the rest of the group whilst still clearly being the 'big dumb brute' of the group.

I think perhaps losing the comrade and giving them the Bone'Ead upgrade with slightly different penalties might work a lot better, though I freely admit i'm not sure what would be more appropriate.

Suthainn said:

Yeah, this is from the entry on Nork…

"By Ogryn standards, Nork is a genius, given that he can write his name (or at least the first initial of it), count as high as four and even speak in short sentences.  These are rare (if not unique) achievements in Ogryn development."

And he's had -additional- enhancements beyond just BONE…

That's my fundamental reason for why I don't see them as good PC options, they're not even smart enough to communicate!  They can mostly grunt and say one or two words… that's not a good thing.  And even with BONE counting is difficult and short sentences a rarity.

H.B.M.C. said:

Having read the comments here is my idea, let me know what you think.

+10 Strength and +10 Toughness and -15 Intelligence are fine. And with out the incress in size the -10 to Agility isn't needed which I will deal more with to follow.

Size (Hulking) works well as it makes them the same as Space Marines in armor which in fluff they are only slightly bigger than them in armor, and most orks (even Warbosses) are only high end Hulking, as the Chimera is Size (Enormous) I think that’s a bit too much.

Both Unnatural Strength and Toughness ought to be (+3) as I believe the Black Crusade book said that the old (x2) is akin to (+2-+4) I think +3 is a good increase without over shadowing the other PC.

Wounds I like your idea, 1d5+25 is good I think.

I like the thoughts about the Ripper you all have put up. But doing that to my mind means they need to have Bulging Biceps and I think they ought to have them anyway.

Also I agree that they shouldn’t get a comrade but should get something like this for maybe around 2000 exp:

Bionic Ogryn Neural Enhancement (Very Rare);

Bionic Ogryn Neural Enhancement, also known as Biochemical Ogryn Neural Enhancement is a procedure sometimes performed on Ogryns who have demonstrated intellect and insight above the norm. Using a combination of Augmetic implants, biochemical treatments, electro-shock therapy and surgery, the subject’s brain is enhanced, allowing it to operate more efficiently than a normal Ogryn’s brain. An Ogryn who has undergone this procedure is known as a BONE’ead, a title which is worn with pride by those granted it.
An Ogryn BONE’ead gains a Permanent +5 Intelligence. With an additional +5 to Fellowship when dealing with other Ogryn.

This doesn’t offset the -15 completely but does make them a little less stupid and gives them a boost to Fellowship when doing what they are meant to,

I'm alright with baby ogryn. 

Very few people are going to play up the disadvantages.  In my group, I have a couple of guys that forego buying intelligence to boost combat stats, and will spend hour upon hour justifying how they might be able to come up with some incredible plan.  Having a lesser combat monster makes curbing them easier.

While the argument has been made that a tank or a lascannon wielding guardsman could easily dispatch the ogryn, it lacks what happens in places where tanks and lascannons cannot go.  The ogryn will not be operating at diminished capacity for not having a tank or lascannon. 

Campaign with one for a couple of months and see if it's still just a baby at the end.

also keep in mind, that Frenzy gives a -20 on int. So any ogryn who takes  or goes frenzy will feint.

vogue69 said:

Frenzy gives a penalty, not characteristic damage. A frenzied Ogryn doesn't faint anymore than a guy in Terminator Armor gets paralyzed for having a low Agi score. It's clarified in the BC errata if you don't believe me.

 Ogryns receive the Auto-Stabilised trait, they don't need bulging biceps

Armand23 said:

First, I can't think of anywhere an Ogryn could fit that a Lascannon couldn't…

Second, the problem with 'Baby Ogryn' is that they don't have a chance to become 'adult' ones without some more unnaturals.  Remember, this is a race that's as big as the largest Orks… and just as tough and strong.