TorogTarkdacil812 said:

Comrades don't roll, like at all. They act on the initiative of the player whos Comrade they are and they don't make attack rolls either. Not so sure about the other stuff. I really like the idea that the Storm Trooper can pass on his knowledge to his allies which feels very aproporiate for an elite soldier which should have some areas where he stands out. Making him specialize in piloting a Valkyre seems silly since there's no Valkyries in the book as of now (and I gues we'll only see them in a supplement). Grav-Chutes are equally problematic since they'll be used at best once per mission so he'll hardly have any use for that ability / skill / advance.

Dang, I need to study comrades more closely. Still I would like to have Stormtrooper advances more along these lines than what is there now (both Mentor and Protector scream I AM MOTHERFRAKKIN JARRAN KELL to me), but alas houseruling has killed very few people so far, as I doubt there would be so massive changes.

The Strom Trooper have no comrades; he can either 'loan out' his skills to the other squad members (which is intresting), or take damage instead of comrade (which is silly- take rolled damage for NPC comrades who themselves can no longer run- can only protect those who are about to die, meaing they are woudned and cannot run)

As for WS; Weapon skill is not limited by how to swing a sword and stab with a knife; it is your capacity in melee; with knives and swords true, but kicks, fists, grapple,  throws and the like; and don't tell me mordern armies, especially elite units, are not trained in hand-to-hand combat.  And the elite untis are generally well trained into hand-to-hand combat, taking down someone with no wepaons, in silence..like a sentry right before the raid begins.  Hard to be silent when hot-shots lasguns cannot be silenced, or even regular lasguns for that matter (yes longlas got a buffer of sorts- but that's the long las, not the lasgun/hot-shot), so you'd better fall bakc to the good ol, fashionned "Silent apporach, knife between the ribs" technique to secure the element of surprise.

Stormtroopers get some training: they're at single aptitude for a lot of the melee stuff, rather than double like the ones really focused [and who actually get equipped with] chainswords and whatnot.

But its not what they're intended for. They're made for hitting fortified positions, often after having trained for that specific assault beforehand [plans, blueprints, mock assault wargames and so on] when possible. Fast assault on a fortified position, breaking a reinforced line.

When stormtroopers hit, its not the quiet commando stuff, although the Rapport of a Lasgun is at the point of impact when the pulses ignite ablated materials. There's no explosion at the muzzle after all.

And even when it is supposed to be that quiet, what training they CAN get with their aptitudes still allows them to be far superior in melee to those soldiers they will silence. Still, they're not expert duelists. Things shot dead with hellguns don't need to be stabbed, and that's their primary equipment.

They could use a little boost in the comrade-replacement-ability department and the hellgun backpacks are far too heavy for what little ammunition they can carry, but their aptitudes are pretty good now.

anyone even looked at the cheapest WS related buys the ST have access to?  Look at how he gets a few talents that boost his damage by half WSA, attacks can't be dodge, more crit damage…you don't see lightning attack or swift attack; I'm not saying make the ST the WS expert in the specialty, long melee battle sare for the guardsmen; I'm saying that WS gives them access to a few potent WS related taletns, that will strengthen the idea of quick, killing strikes rather than numerous bayonnet trust like the Weapon spec has with swift/lightnight attack.

It's not the quantity of blows delivered, it's the quality of the blow that counts for the Storm Trooper

That's not Storm Troopers in 40k dude, that's assasins. Temple assasins, moritat, vindicare. We already have plenty of space ninjas. No need to go cramming that into another archetype.

Yes, Stormtroopers will probably beat up regular joes in a bar fight, but they are not lethal close combat death machines in TT or fluff or this RPG. That equates to one aptitude, which they get. It does not mean two, that's for dedicated melee guys like Ogryn and Commisars. They are not modern special forces either.

And that's just plain sensible. Most of the foes of mankind are simply too strong, tough or fast for anything remotely human to beat in close combat. Fighting Orcs in hand to hand is like Mike Tyson vs Stephen Hawkings. Marines get their asses handed to them in close combat by Orcs and they are 8 foot tall supermen. And Orcs are one of the most common foes of the imperial guard.

You don't train to deal with tigers by studying tiger-style kung fu. You get a gun and you learn to shoot it. That's what Storm troopers do.

 Actually i would argue that storm troopers are pretty much the parallel of modern day special forces. Still they are  not melee specialists.

Never said they ought to be the melee Specialist; but they ought to be able to handle themselves well in melee, equally if not better than Weapon Specialist.

Braddoc said:

Why? A weapon specialists are jack of all, they're veterans of the guard they should be able toss it up in melee better than Storm Troopers, because he doesn't have a hell gun/hotshot weapon. A ST should know basics in melee, but they're not front-lines men. Storm Troopers are more Shock Troops, they rush the enemies weak point using their superior arms and gear to do the job. Or they attack enemy Armor divisions, putting them out of commission with Krak Gernades. They get a hot-shot pistol for melee. 

Andor said:

I don't see those specialists in the Only War Beta book.  You got a page number? 

Manyfist said:

Ah, I see it's because of that.  Only natural they only get a single Aptitude for WS just like the Weapon Spec has.  And loosing all 'unique' ,cheap WS related talents the storm trooper had over the Weapon Spec to make him capable in melee.  Go check my list, post #1 of this thread.

Manyfist said:

You are right, they are the elite corps of the Imperial Guard

Manyfist said:

First, they can be used for oh-so-much than those two things.  Assasination. Reconnaissance.  Sabotage. Forward observation for artillery or bombardment. Extraction.  Insertion.  They also do not have Krak Grenades, except via the Regiment or logistics roll, nor do they begin with a hot-shot pistol.  Please stop taking the table top equipment as 100% certainty people.   They start with the Regimental kit, good quality hot-shot lasgun and good quality light carapace.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Having considered the issue, I finally concede that perhaps stormies shouldn't have the WS aptitude.  However, I do believe (and no-one has contradicted me on this so far) that toughness should be replaced with defence, and they should have the strength aptitude instead.  They wouldn't lose anything major from this and they would gain at least one aptitude towards advances such as nerves of steel, unshakeable faith and fearless, which I think was mentioned by someone else earlier, something about them being made of sterner stuff.

On the subject of the 'intelligent' Imperial Guard, are we talking about the same guard that employs men on horseback?

And why, oh why, should the weapons specialist be good in melee?  Or at least better than stormtroopers?  Should a line guardsman be able to beat an elite soldier in a fistfight?

And @ManyFist, WepSpecs are not automatically veterans of the guard, as you seem to assume.

 I'm pretty sure the melee focused people are Ogryns and Commissars.

 I thought they started with a hot-shot las pistol for some reason and Krak Gernades. However they should start with a hot-shot las pistol, in which way they don't have to melee and leave the meleeing to Commissars, Wpn Specialists, Ogryns, and maybe Heavy Weapons.

Manyfist said:

First WepSpec, now the heavy… why?  Why would a guy with a heavy bolter be good in melee?  You can't even put a melee attachment on a heavy weapon!

Thaddux said:

I'm not quite sure what the exact implications of switching toughness for defense would be but from the way you describe it it seems like a reasonable choice. I'm not so sure about giving them strength as well, replacing toughness with defense seems like an upgrade to them (since defense just applies to more skills and talents then toughness while applying to the same attribute) so I'm not sure if they wouldn't become a little to strong by giving them strength as well.

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leave the meleeing to Commissars, Wpn Specialists, Ogryns, and maybe Heavy Weapons.
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Now I kinda want to so a Heavy Gunner that smashes Orks with his Missile Launcher