Yeah, but having only half the aptitudes doesn't mean its inaccessable either. Also, Hot Shot Pilot, while useful, doesn't really equal Operate(Surface) +30 which is more what I meant.

Certainly, not having a multi person vehicle would stink for them, but at that point, many of the classes would be well served piloting them. Operator is just half mechanic.

On foot they're useful for having tech use/security, and thus being the combat engineers who can get into places. I do think they need more base wounds, they're too squishy.

Also, why would an operator only have an average (30) int? Thats a very important stat for them. It should be high 30s (and probably their second highest stat).

Once again, they have 2 of the 4 possible additional aptitudes, they could easily convince the group to get one of those, and thus be able to select an aptitude like finesse.

Well, despite all NPCs being almost painfully obviously built off 25+2d10, about 31 is going to be your average int result, so its not an unreasonable starting point.

Intelligence and Agility are both single-aptitudes for the Operator, so gunnery and actual piloting has more potential if you instead roll up a Ratling [well, for a given xp amount nothing has quite as much potential as a ratling]. The operator is a better mechanic, but not actually as good a pilot.

Kiton said:

Ah, I guess you must have a GM who failed the test then. See, the whole "roll stats in place" thing? Thats a complete load. Its an exercise in rule 0. Any GM who understands "fun" would allow the players to select where stats go, therefore exercising Rule 0.

Also, NPCs aren't a great thing to compare to. They're about a 93 point buy character with sub standard selections. PCs can do better.

That's a bit more of a houserule, there.

While I do not necessarily disagree with houserules [some should've been official, some are pretty good either way, some are bad ideas and some make you want to stay away from whatever group came up with it], one cannot judge a system with them applied. Their inclusion to one's campaign is, after all, an indication that something was, at least from a subjective point of view, lacking, erroneous or imbalanced with the system.

I've no problem letting my group apply their rolls like that, but to say that this makes things fine when the system does not actually have this option cannot be counted as a point in the system's character generation any more or less than a group using 2d12 for generation, or playing sentient Leman-Russ Machine-Spirits would.

Imperial Guardsmen [Troop] are either a 104 point buy off 20 [with excellent allocation for their duties] which equates to a reasonable, slightly above-average set of rolls… or a 59 pointer off 25+2d10, making them the mooks. A Stormtrooper is either looking at 136 points or 91. A Commissar NPC? either 140 or 95. While there's obviously some racials involved, a regular Kabalite Warrior adds up to 190 or 145.

So there's quite a few NPCs out there that are worth far more than 93 points off a 20 base.

You're forgetting to calculate in regimental/specialization bonuses into the guardsmen NPC point buy.

As far as house rules. I'll grant you that its certainly a failing of the system to not include the option. Then again, a point buy system is hardly "fairer." But I would say its a greater failure to go with a system that basically crushes a players dreams of playing their selected character well, by arbitrarily setting their stats one way over another.

Well, since for once we're talking about a beta that's actually getting changes done [rather refreshing, really, after what videogame alphas/betas/weswearitsreadyforreleases have become] perhaps we can actually suggest something.

Now. There's something to be said for allowing yourself to fall to chance; even if your total points are higher, it won't necessarily be anywhere you need, let alone want it, after all, and sometimes the results are just plain bad. We're also looking at wanting to offer at least a solid chance for players to choose what they want to craft, as well, correct? And even with the regimental and specialty values, that NPC stormtrooper would still be in the high 120s.

So how about just offering three options:

1] 21+2d10 for each stat, down the line, no assignment. You do get to perform one reroll as normal

2] Base 20, 100 point pointbuy.

3] 20+2d10 nine times. Assign as you will, and you may then [and only after assigning] perform a single reroll. Of course, that could turn your worst stat into your best stat, but there's at least a little bit of chance involved.

This way, there's a mild, but only mild, incentive towards allowing yourself to begin with a clean slate. We need not explain the sheer advantage of being able to place  your stats as you wish, but while the point-buy is worth one higher in the total, its nevertheless got less potential.

I think what was recommended earlier is a wise choice, baking the Aptitude bonuses at Regiment Creation into either Homeworld or Regiment type (or both, if you wanted more Aptitudes) and removing them from Doctrines entirely. Doctrines should be bonuses and tricks to round out the training type the soldiers recieved, rather than something so essential. It would also make less 'optimized' doctrines more viable and appealing if it wasn't a choice between 'minor but flavorful bonus' or 'All your EXP costs are lower'.

Similar, the point about Hotshot Pilot is apt. Our Medic in my group took Agility as her bonus Aptitude (since she already had Willpower and they took Iron Discipline) and suddenly, after taking Hotshot Pilot, she has the same piloting advance as an Operator and all the Operate skills. She could serve about as well as an Operator, in general, while having better Wounds and a wider variety of other skills. She might not be a great mechanic (though still not bad, with her high Int and Int aptitude), but she can drive or fly just as well. This seems problematic, to me.