LuciusT said:

Haven't we had this discussion already?

We have. You didn't convince me.

If mimicing TT is so crucial, then how do explain the obvious point differences between characters? 1 Commissar != 1 weapon specialist with flamer point wise, and yet both are available to PCs as an option.

1 PC Guardsman != 1 Imperial Guard Trooper model… because PCs are better than mooks.

My problem with the Storm Trooper is that is shouldn't have been included in the core book. It should have been a "higher level" option. Perhaps the Ogryn suffers from the same problem.

If, OTOH, 1 PC Guardsman = 1 Imperial Guard Trooper model, then I wholeheartedly endorse this statement and further advocate the removal of Commissars, Psykers, Priests and Tech Priests from the game.

Santiago said:

Why? The schola is the source of literally all storm troopers. Kasrkin are the same way, schola trained.

TT is a horrible reference point for character balance. FFG once did a very good job representing the power differences between different TT models in playable careers, and the resulting product (Ascension) is broken to the level of being unplayable.

That's because TT stats represent a "snapshot" of reality, the generalized prowess of a select few individuals at a particular point in time (a point which may not even be the same for all profiles), devoid of context and arbitrarily adjusted to fit meta-categories enforced by game rules.

From the perspective of a roleplaying game, this isn't very helpful, because ideally you want the broadest spectrum of character options while keeping them all balanced in relation to each other. Some of the problems this causes with porting 40k have been handled by splitting it into several differently balanced game lines, but you can't keep multiplying the games infinitely.

Fortunately, there are many instances where you can bring characters down to a lower common denominator without sacrificing their fluff. This is generally handled by those characters getting reverted to an earlier point in time, where all they had was the basest set of abilities necessary to do justice to setting lore. Every Commissar is trained in leading from the front lines and maintaining squad morale, but not every one is as good at it as Gaunt, and not every one is a badass combatant comparable with Yarrick. You can be like either, or both of these guys - in time and with experience. Right now you're a young Commissar straight out of training.

Same applies to Storm Troopers. Yes, they are superbly trained. Not everyone of them is a perfectly drilled veteran marksman that the TT figure represents, because there's only so much skill you can confer by training alone, and the assumption is the Storm Trooper you play in OW is not very experienced.

 Why do all of the threads on this particular board turn into off-topic fights?

First the homebrew thread, now here. Take it to 4chan or something, guys. Sheesh.

I honestly and humbly apologize for hijacking your thread.

(I in no way yield my position, but I agree that this is not the proper thread to debate it.)

Sorry.

DJSunhammer said:

Kasrkin Commandos are actually Elite Cadian PDF, taken from their time in the White shields, getting elite training as to be totally devoted to the defense of Cadia, so they should have the same homeworld as the rest of the Guardsmen PCs.

And back on track; what did you run? Against the savages or something else?

I see. To me that says they are essentially grenadiers, which serve the same purpose as Storm Trooper and have similar training and gear, but are strictly a part of their regiment and are trained on their home world instead of the schola. I don't think it warrants changing the Storm Trooper entry in the book though. If you want to build a grenadier for your regiment you only need to take use the Storm Trooper as a starting template for gear and talents and such. After that you can write whatever story you want. I've done this with one of my characters and its really simple, to the point that no house rules are needed.

Braddoc said:

I came up with a little thing. PCs were on a secessionist world in an ongoing conflict leaning in favor of the loyalists. They fly in on a Valkyrie and hose a mansion with the door-mounted guns, then drop in, fight through several guards, and then have a stand-off against an enemy general. They took him down (a rather gruesome mechadendrite execution) and frantically radio'd for ex-fil as the shelling began. Everyone had fun! We had a Storm Trooper (who quickly left after the first combat), a handy Medic, a very deadly Heavy Gunner (used a flamer) and an Enginseer with horrendous luck.

DJSunhammer said:

That's what my players did - use the Storm Trooper specialisation as their regiment's grenadier contingent.

I don't think you've realized yet, MILL, I am that same player. I will probably be posting the regiment and planet information for the Aestans on here at some point. Probably after I do some editting passes.

DJSunhammer said:

I thought something you said earlier sounded familiar

That'd be great - the regiment and planet fluff you came up with was awesome!