Buhallin, I completely appreciate why that one particular game was no fun at all, but Tag/Scorched Earth isn't really comparable to Channel/Fireball. The difference, I would say, is that one of the virtues of NR is that most strategies can be counteracted by making the right play against them, whereas in early Magic there was no answer for the combo you mention if played on the first turn.

Although that particular game you experienced was short and unfun, I doubt you'd fall into the same trap again if the same situation arose, because there are ways round it.

Buhallin said:

From what you are saying, it sounds like the real problem -- if there is a problem -- is not with scorched earth but, rather, with cards like breaking news, SEA source, posted bounty, etc. Is that right?

For the future, that's probably correct. Being able to tag on your turn and immediately use that tag is something that will definitely have to be balanced. Currently, the only way to really abuse that balance is 2x Scorched Earth (which I know, you have to draw). I think my main problem is that, yes, the runner can play differently and minimize the chance of getting hit by the combo. But, the combo can equally go off without the runner doing anything wrong, and can happen as early as turn two.

As I see it, its currently the only combo where the runner can play everything right and still have the game abruptly end. That's the only reason I brought it up and think a balancing mechanic of any type on the card would have been a good idea. Remove the tag, once per turn, cost more credits, etc. Any would have made the card fit in with the rest of the game better, in my opinion.

I don't know that I'd say the PROBLEM is the ability for certain corp cards to tag the runner without precondition; but it combines horribly with the direct-damage options that need tags.

In the original NetRunner, there were few ways for to tag the runner during the Corp's turn.  All of them relied on the Runner doing something the previous turn - make a run, usually - that depended on the card in question.  Even these almost universally functioned by allowing a Trace instead of simply handing out tags.  The only one that would directly tag the Runner was Trojan Horse, which required them to be tagged.

These were offset by some pretty robust options for the Runner to avoid tags - Nasuko Cycle, Fall Guy, Leland, Nomads, the Weeflerunner, etc, and most of those had an extra beneficial effect to go along with them.  These existed solely because cards like I Got A Rock and original Urban Renewal made tags so nasty.

What we're seeing now is an increase in the ability of the corp to dish out tags with no action on the part of the runner, combined with a card pool that restricts the options to avoid tags in the first place and then further restricts those options because of the new faction system.  Even if you consider the availability of those few counters sufficient, it means the game comes down to whether or not the Runner can get them and get them installed before the Corp comes across a mere two-card combo and flatlines them.

It doesn't have to be two Scorched Earth. It only takes one, unless the runner keeps their hand above 3 at all times. That's a huge burden. As has been pointed out, if they're playing right the Corp may have to stage it over an extra turn and have two more bits, but it's easy enough to trash Crash Space once they're tagged before you drop the Urban Renewal.

If we consider the original balanced (which I do - tag-n-bag was viable but hardly dominant as a corp style) the new system improves the corp's ability to tag, seriously degrades the runner's ability to avoid tags, makes those few abilities faction-dependent, and keeps the lethality of the "If runner is tagged" operations the same.  That's a bad combination.

Maybe this is just me, but why exactly is suffering 4 meat damage a "game-ender." Alright, they just trashed most of your hand, big whoop, you can draw a new one. Sure, it would be bad to get hit by multiple times, but I fail to see why thats the point at which you might as well concede the game.

And why would playing it 2x in one turn be even remotely useful? Alright, you wipe out their whole hand, big deal.

Are people reading meat damage = brain damage or something?

If a runner is forced to discard and has no cards left to discard then he/she flat lines and loses the game. 

It's a combo. A powerful one sure. But it just a combo. It requires too many things to go right. It is not something that unbalances the game or anything.

Also this is Android: Netrunner, not Netrunner CCG.

KomissarK, meat, net, and brain damage all force you to discard cards. When the runner has no cards to discard and they have to discard a card or more, they flatline and lose the game.

Buhallin said:

With respect, I don't think the problem here is with Scorched Earth, but with your play, which was poor. You almost certainly intended to draw cards next turn (or should have), and decided to play out Magnum Opus instead of drawing immediately. Since you devoted no actions that turn to actually using Magnum Opus, you could just have easily played it out on turn 2 without impacting your income in any way. The corp punished you for poor play. I don't see the problem.

Remember, the flip-side to Scorched Earth is that the Runner can essentially turn it into a dead card with tight play.

Silent Requiem said:

You made a run, so the Corp would play 'Chance Observation' to give you a tag (at no cost since you didn't have a base link) and then play 'Scorched Earth' to deal four meat damage to you. So, for a cost of two actions (clicks) and 5 bits (credits) you'd have been exactly as dead in the second turn.

I think your memory is misleading you.

 Yeah, ending a turn with 3 cards in hand against a corp that you aren't certain isn't running Scorched is bad play, sorry. So is not running on unrezzed ice. If you don't force the corp to spend money then there will always be that money sitting there to prevent you from running later. Run early, absolute worst case is you take a few damage and draw back up, or you get tagged and shake it.

Whoops, did not realize the whole "if you cannot discard, then flatline" part of the rules. See it now, its right there in the Damage section, surprised I missed it.

Still, it would be nice if they included that little aspect in the wording of the damage type itself. On my initial reading it felt as if that was all there was to know (that all you do is discard a card at random).

No, actually it could not have played out the same in the original - you should probably check your own memory before making snarky comments about someone else's.  Chance Observation cost 2, and Urban Renewal cost 6.  It also required the runner to actually do something, which the current does not - which may not have come up in that specific game, but is certainly relevant.

The "bad play" discussions are awesome in hindsight, but stupid.  "Always run on ICE!" right? And if the ICE had been a Data Raven, the game is just as over - Corp is left with 1 bit but can tag the runner at will.  Take two bits, Raven them for the tag, drop the Renewal, and it's over.  Theorycrafting is bad enough, but hindsight strategic analysis is even worse.  Or the node could easily be a Ghost Branch, and it's all over too.  That's part of the problem - it's not even really a combo.  There are so many ways to unavoidably tag the runner that Urban Renewal can combine with any of 3-4 other cards perfectly well..

I understand this is not the original Netrunner - obviously - but it uses the same rules and many of the same cards, and that means they can be compared and contrasted.  When you start with something that was pretty well balanced, then you make it far easier for the Corp to tag during their turn, harder for the runner to avoid tags, and cut the cost for a game-ending play in half, it's hard to see how it stays balanced.

I never said it wasn't avoidable, but I don't think the avoidance techniques are balanced.  "Keep 4 cards in your hand at all time or you're playing badly" is not a balanced answer.  It effectively makes every card play the runner does cost an extra click as they're forced to draw the card back.

What's more, that's the ONLY real way to avoid it.  The faction-limited nature of the few tag avoidance options means they aren't practical across the board.  Again, looking to the original, there were a number of options the Runner could take - link enhancement, tag avoidance from any of a half-dozen options, forcing the corp to stay poor (keeping them below 8 is far easier than keeping them below 5).  None of that is really viable any more.

Is it a guaranteed beat-everything card?  Of course not, but it doesn't have to be for it to be unbalanced.

Urban Renewal was a completely different card (cost 6, 5 meat damage) in the original game and no one used it.

Corps used Scorched Earth which, aside from factioning, is exactly the same in Android. Tag N Bag was gloriously fast and deadly in the original game. My Corp deck used Fetal AI, Trojan Horse and Scorched Earth to finish Runners off before they even knew they were facing a Tag N Bag deck.

ffaristocrat said:

Whoops, got my damagers mixed up.  My bad - I preferred Urban Renewal personally, but always aimed for I Got a Rock because it was cool :)  Then yes, I concur that the same could have occurred - but I still very much maintain that it's gotten far easier to do now, and far harder to stop.  If it happened in the original, I could easily say "Well, you should probably keep more cards in your hand, OR make sure you have a link set up before you run, OR have a Cycle OR Weeflerunner OR any of these six other cards to avoid the tag."  The counter options now are far, far smaller.

You cannot look at the number of tag avoidance options the Runner had before, and say it's easier for the Runner to avoid tags.  You also cannot look at the number of direct-tag options the Corp has now, and say it's gotten harder for the Corp to tag the Runner.

If Tag N Bag was "gloriously fast and deadly" in the original, and the new one makes tagging easier and tag avoidance harder, what does that make it now?

In the original, 20% of my Tag N Bag deck was Scorched Earths. Now you can only have 3. Until more meat damage shows up, it's going to be hard to build a deck that reliably kills the Runner in a short period of time.

The factions also give you a heads up of what to expect. Weyland will have it and Scorched Earth has very heavy influence cost for the other factions to use it. NBN is likely to be bringing it in but that means it won't be able to import the run-ending ice that it desperately needs.

In contrast, Decoy is only a point of influence and Crash Space is reasonable as well.

Data Raven? Corp rezzes it (at no small cost), you decide to end the run rather than take the tag. Then you run somewhere else. Now the corp doesn't have the money to go after you. Or you run somewhere else first, force the corp to spend money there and then walk past the Data Raven to steal Breaking News.

Can the corp get lucky? Sure. So can the Runner if they hit R&D three times their first turn and pull nothing but agendas… which is more likely in the new version between the increased agenda requirement and the available cards.