Nathiel said:

I mean that --

The reason that the ranged combat bonusses are the way they are (+10/+0/-10) is to preserve the old DH/RT/DW pattern (0/+10/+20), but flipped around; with the addition of Half-Action Aim, it becomes +20/+10/+0, the exact opposite of the old pattern.

If they had simply retained the old melee rules, this would have resulted in melee weapons being inherently less accurate than ranged weapons -- including in melee. Hence a +10 had to be applied to melee Standard Attacks as well. (Then to preserve the hierarchy within melee attacks, All-Out Attack had to become +30 and so forth -- ah ripple effects).

They should have simply done that, and left melee combat otherwise alone, IMO.

 Anyway the broader issue is that was borked in the other systems was ranged combat, not melee. There was no point in changing it other than a desire to bring melee and ranged into the same model for the hell of it. BTW these ranged issues don't matter at all in Deathwatch, at least post-errata, since almost nothing has full auto anyway. And Orks and the Defiler will never, ever hit, practically.

On the Flipping: I'm no dev, but I can at least take a stab at the numbers, that could give a bit of reasoning.

When we first had Dark Heresy, ranged combat depended entirely on aimed shots and full-auto to achieve its edge over melee. It, however, had a definite one, partly thanks to the far greater number of upgrades and talents you could bring a gun. Pretty much the only boost melee had was that non-power-weapons could improve their AP by 2, and the quality upgrade affecting it directly.They really needed to improve melee, and they DID.

Since then, the numbers have changed greatly. Base went up from 20 to 25, or even 30 on many characters. Equipment and talents at both ends got improved, so that melee or range is more of a personal choice now, so long as you can find the guns you need to keep up on the damage front. But always, ALWAYS, you were better off with full auto weapon of good damage than a piddly "accurate" rifle, or even just using a Heavy Weapon. Semi-Auto on an Autocannon was better than a Long-Las that's for sure.

Now doing single-shot plus half action aim on an accurate weapon means a BS 25 guardsman hits 55% of the time before any other modifiers such as range, target size, equipment bonuses and all that. OR, using a normal lasgun's semi-auto, a 35% chance to hit [20% of once, 15% of twice]. With Full Auto on an otherwise identical lasgun variant? 25% of connecting, giving us 10% one hit, 10% two hits, 5% three hits. Weapon Quality still hasn't caught up for humans in the Ranged Category, even though they fixed it for the Orks and Space marines but that's a different complaint of mine.

What really dropped though, is that, so long as you're not counting the price per shot, you're exchanging a very small amount of per-shot accuracy [instead of IMPROVING IT] to gain a much higher average number of hits per action in the long run. With a Base BS or WS of 35 instead of 25, you're already coming out a good deal ahead, getting significantly more hits per volley in your overall average, RoF willing, than single shots. In other words its still a significant damage upgrade if you do it right. The higher your chance to hit, the greater the advantage. Eventually you just toss your long-las, grab yourself a Multilaser, and go to bloody town.

But those that do want to stick to single shot are a whole lot less screwed for it this way. Being viable's a good thing.

Blah Blah Blah….

I asked a question and devs finnaly answered. wow. You can literally slay a mag 30 horde in a single round. Answer from  (Tim Huckelbery, RPG Producer).

> Rule Question:
> Hi
> I have few questions about Melee vs. Horde combat  Attacking a horde:
> There is a lot of misunderstanding about hand to hand combat against Hordes:
> In "Attacking a Horde (p. 349)" paragraph you say, you can damage a horde by shooting or attacking it in melee. You can shoot using semi or full auto fire and score additional hits. Do this apply also to melee equivalents swift/lightning attacks, which allow you to score additional hits against a single opponent?

Yes, but all hits must be applied to the Horde just like multiple ranged weapon hits from semi or full auto.

> 1. Which of the attack actions can be used against a horde ( standard? all-out attack? Swift? Lightning?) or is attacking a horde another type of attack with a TO Hit modifier based only on its magnitude ( so no +10/+30/+0/-10 for actions)

All of those attack types can be used

> If you can use a +30 all out attack, then standard +10 attack probably would be us eless, because you can parry/dodge anyway (unless fighting with 2 weapons, later).
>
> Example 1: A 60WS Berserker does an All-Out Attack (+30) to a 30 Magnitude Horde (+30 to hit), and rolling 25 (10 DoS) would score 5 hits ( horde combat rule)?

Correct!

>
> 2. If you can use a swift or lightning attack, which score extra hits based on number of DoS, do you score even more hits for extra DoS on a hit roll for participating in a combat against a Horde? I mean:
> The horde rules say that you score 1 hit per 2 degrees of success
> SA lets you score 1 hit for 1 DoS, and 1more/2extra DoS
> LA lets you score 1 hit for 1 DoS, and 1more/1extra DoS

Yes, they would combine.

>
> Example 2: A 60WS Berserker SA a 30 (+0) Magnitude Horde (+30 to hit), and rolling 25 (7 DoS) would score 1+3 hits (SA) and another 3 hits ( horde combat rule) for a total of 7 hits, or if they don't stack just 4 (SA) or just 3 ?

The former.

> Example 3: A 60WS Berserker LA a 30 Magnitude Horde (+30 to hit), and rolling 25 (6 DoS) would score 1+6 (max 6) hits (LA) and another 3 hits ( horde combat rule) for a total of 9 hits, or if they don't stack just 6 (LA) or just 3 ?

The former.

>
> 3. Another thing is you  can u possibly use 2 weapons against a horde for extra hits (2 weapon wielder melee, empowered with other talents)?
> So if yes  you have two attack rolls and DoS from Both give you Bonus hits against a Horde?

Yes, if you have the correct Talent to do so.

>
> Example 4: A 60WS Berserker with 2 swords ( Two Weapon Wielder Melee, Ambidexterity, so a -10/-10) Standard Attack (+10/+10) a 30 Magnitude Horde (+30 to hit), and rolling 25 and a 45 (7+5 DoS) would score 3+2 hits ( horde combat rule) for a total of 5 hits
>
> 4. And how would fighting with 2 power swords with a Horde look like  each Standard Attack would be a +2 hits for 2 Power field Weapons

Each weapon would give one extra hit, worked out after all additional hits were calculated.

> How would it look if all of these were true?:
>
> Example 5: A frenzied ( + 10 WS) 60WS Berserker with 2 power swords ( Two Weapon Wielder Melee, Ambidexterity, Blade Dancer(so a -0 /-0), Whirlwind of Death) LA (-10/-10) a 30 Magnitude Horde (+30 to hit), and rolling 15 and 35 (8+6 DoS) would score 1+7 +1+5(second arm)(max 7+7) hits (LA), 2 hits for two Power field weapons, 4 (70 WS, 7 WS bonus, half=3,5=4) hits WoD and another 4 + 3 hits ( horde combat rule) for a total of 26 hits?
> Which would be more than 75%, that mean he could destroy that horde in a single round? Overpowerd? I don't think so. imagine same Berserker attacking squad of 10 Space marines - they would possibly last another turn. A Berserker like that could possibly even destroy a dreadnought (rear armour) in one or two rounds.
> Or maybe It should be done another way I just can't imagine?

A Berzkerer of that nature should indeed roar through a Horde, so yes he could!

>
> 5. I have one more overpowered anti-Horde Combat question. Photon-Flash Granades. Imagine we have the Magnitude 30 horde of Imperial Guard. A group of heretics throws 3 Photon Flash Grenades. Horde annihilated? I mean you can't possibly miss a horde - max Scatter range is 5 meters, so a Blast(10) weapon will always hit. Page 349 says, that for Blast Weapons number of hits is equal to Blast value, there is nothing about being able to do damage or not. Am I right? Or is this a little overpowered and maybe should it be changed in a FAQ/Errata.

Yes, it should be rather difficult not to hit a Horde with grenades that have the Blast quality - big crowds of foes are ideal for frag grenades after all. It would depend on the Horde though if flash grenades would be a good idea, the blindness test isn't that hard to pass. Like you noted, you just get lots of hits, not automatic Damage.

> I would also Like to ask you if you could put clarified Melee vs horde combat rules in a FAQ, because from what I have seen in the Boards, there is a lot of misunderstanding about it.

Great suggestion and I'll add this to our plans for the next round of Errata, thanks! 

… wow. Didn't think they'd go for the max combined potential being as intended there.

One dual-wielder in melee can kill more people in five seconds than an Integrated Astartes Assault Cannon using Fyceline rounds with 9 degrees of success [Storm, +1 for explosive, RoF maxed: 21 hits].

I guess technically if slayer limbs allowed you to dual-wield the things, you could potentially technically get 42, but with that many extra arms instead the berserker would probably have more than caught up again.

Imagine same berserker fighting ordinary space marines - could kill 4-5 a round - numbers seem to be ok as far as I see. It's WH 40K if hand to hand combat weren't better then shooting no one would carry a power sword, am I right?

 And there is still the "Tail" special extra attack for extra hits :P

More like "how are so many just *helping* you by tossing their buddies onto your axe?" You can't really have thirty men directly around you unless they were piling on [in the grapple sense], without so much as having to expend for movement. Its like the 40 Assault marines you're facing instantly transformed themselves into power-weapon moths.

Personally though, always felt the overwhelming melee advantage of the tabletop was just a result of bad scaling. Your enemies cannot be more than about four feet away [if we use the lasgun to translate that into range, 200m] but usually start closer, and travel at least 6" [50m] in the time it takes to fire one burst from your lasgun, usually twice that for those interested in melee. Even from "sniping" or "artillery" ranges things run so fast they're through the barrage and in your face in barely a few decaseconds.