Hiyas!

WARNING - TWISTED STUFF COMING:

[Ye just made me] conjure up some pretty bizarre images now... Slaneeshi CSMs with giant horns/tusks for penises, hentai marines (much like noize marines), mutated she-male marines, giant amorphous "baby" marines, etc. 

That's just the tip (pun)!

L

It's all yer fault!

LETE said:

Purge the abominations! Let them burn in holy fire! 

Difficult in the middle of the Vortex.

Altho' I've been toying with the notion of a secret Imperial enclave in the Vortex...

L

 I'd assume they have it, but are not capable of reproducing with humans barring warp taint doing some sci-fi magic. They're not just the same species anymore, space marines are not just large, old humans. They're a breed above, the closest we have on earth is horses and donkeys that are different species yet capable of producing offspring. 

Somehow I see space marines beeing further apart from humans then horses are from donkeys. I can easily see them having genitals unless taint in the initiation process involves it. However, alot of fluff suggests CSM fuse together with their armor over time so the ability to use it might be somewhat reduced.

Ghaundan said:

This is primarily in the earlier fluff that still paralleled them to fantasy Chaos Warriors and their Chaos Armour. More recent fluff that I've seen has them out of their armour when not in battle.

HappyDaze said:

I'm not sure Plague Marines take their armour off very often. It actually stands to reason that the more corrupted a Marine is, the less his armour comes off (Berserkers, Obliterators, Champions, Raptors, Noise Marines, must all have their armour fused to an extent).

K0balt said:

Plague Marines ooze puss from every pore. I'm fairly certain they're somewhat discounted on the topic of Astartes sex :P

Obliterators are infected with a supernatural machine virus, which kinda makes them somewhat of another aversion from the baseline.

The rest? I see no logical reason they'd be in any way fused to their armor. At the most I can see the logic behind them removing it less, because they get their jollies in battle, not outside of it, so why remove the appropriate vestment? But none of them, barring other mutations or weirdness, are in any way ever gonna get physically fused or incapable of removing it.


As for the idea of Astartes breeding, well, they don't actually go through genetic therapy, do they? It's all implanted, which means that most likely their genes, and thus their genetic material, remains untouched apart from possible corruption from other sources like chaos and radiation.

Also, wasn't the Emperor VERY adamant about how the Astartes were not to be a new race capable of breeding true as an off-shot of mankind? Wouldn't the easiest way to ensure this remain so be to actually never touch their genetic material, ensuring that any child they have is completely normal and human?

Lamarck was wrong, after all, so unless their genetic material was touched, Space Marines would never stop being genetically human and thus never pose the risk of creating a new race.

Reverend mort said:

That is if their sexual intercourse is consented.  Probably not the case 99% of the time.  Yuck.  Human nature intrudes in the equation.  Better go back to more lighted places now.

L

Overall, better talk this over with your players before any awkward/awful situations pop up.

Berserkers: I don't think psycho-killing machines would take their armor very often. Simply from paranoia. But they may not actually be fused, though.

Champions: generally mutated enough that removing it can be quite problematic.

Noise Marines: most debatable one, but it is so warped as to come off uneasily, if ever, I think.

Raptors: their armor mutates with them. For them, at least, I am 100% sure the armor doesn't come off.

Possessed, since I think of it: depends, but there are quite a few fluff instances where they are bonded.

All in all, I think that the further a marine falls into corruption, the harder it is for the armor to come off (whether willingly or not). That's my interpretation of it, though.

HappyDaze said:

Marines are changed at the genetic level. That's a big part of what the gene-seed does, everyone in the same Legion/Chapter is banded together as brothers. Many of them undergo changes over time that are not surgical or even intended from the conversion process. Just off the top of my head, Space Wolves all develope fangs as they age, both the the Night Lords and Raven Guard lose skin pigmentation to the point of albinoism (Pretty sure that wasn't part of the Empereror's plan for creating the ultimate warriors, it's anyone bearing the gene seed of Konrad Curze or Corax changing genetically to resemble their Primarch). A lot of the changes are from implanted organs or chemical treatments, but there is definite genetic tampering. This alteration is of the functioning diploid cells of the body may not necessarily have any affect on the gametes (I'm not a Magos Biologis, but I play one on television), but as I and others have said in earlier posts; it's not likely that marines will develope useable organs for true reproduction.

All of this of course fails to take into account the possible effects of Chaos on an individual champion's physiology, but most mutations would run more to antlers and flaming steel fingernails than the creation of a fully functional system of organs and glands working in harmony to achieve something that doesn't melt someone's face off.

This has turned into a really fascinating thread - thanks again for the multitude of insightful, thought-provoking responses!

I will confess, I did not read all of the posts, I'm lazy, sorry.  So, even though it's probably been said:

In the old fluff the black carapace fused on top of the skin and the armour would be worn over that, making them unable to do certain functions without the help of the equipment added on.  Now in current fluff there is a special membrane that is surgically grafted into the skin to allow interfacing with the Black Carapace that is worn inside the armour that allows for better manipulation of the armour.  I have read things saying the black carapace is part of the armour, al layer on the inside, and another saying its a suit warn first before you put on the armour.  There is also old and new fluff that says the marines are sterile due to the genetic and physical changes caused by the indoctrination.  But there is also fluff that has to do with the off-spring of marines, mostly space wolves from what i remember.

So, I'd say its up too you, chem-gelt them if you want or allow for fully functioning plumbing.  Or even better when they take their first mutation say that they have a new set of equipment to replace the old non-functioning one :-)

In this case, its purely fluff and has no listed rules in the course of the rules setting, so decide what you like best and if the players complain just remind them that they are being influenced physically and mentally by the warp and this can bring on changes and that the marines have been around for millenia and there are bound to be different "versions" where some were functioning and others were not.

In my games I tend to use marines are sterile and the black carapace is fused to the marine, it does not cover all of him, just large muscle clusters it would leave areas like the neck, joints, genitals, and rectum clear for operation, as most of its purpose is to pick up information and send it to the cogiter in the armour to allow for better function.

Also, thinking from the perspective of one of the ruinous powers, tzeentch in particular, he might actually modify marines to be able to reproduce just so he could raise his own army without having to convert them.  This seems like something he would do.  Take a planet, hide it, drop a bunch of women and a few modified chaos marines on it and in 1 or 2 hundred years or so, hey, you got soldiers waiting for equipment.

while i will be the first to admit i don't know if stuff works down there i will say i don't belive that a space marine could( or want to) reproduce with a women naturally for two reasons.

1st is a book called 1984. in it is a plan on how to control the peaple. one of those things was basicly making peaple afraid to have sex. the reason was that all of the represed sexual tension would be translatted to more agression to thier enemys. now ramp that up to space marine levels where they are already hyper agressive and sprinkle in some hypno traning to make them forgett what said equipment is even used for( the only way imo to overide the second strongest base instinct of an adult male besides survival, just ) or everything truly does work ,but they have the Sparta thing going on.

2nd pysics. ignoring the 2-3 foot difference between a SM and a avarage female, is the proplem of the orgasim itself. now i know that fluff wise SM can do very delicat tasks and such, so basic intercourse would not be a problem, however in the male orgasim the brain flicks off for a brief second and there are several involintary muscle movements. for normal humans not a problem, for a geneticly enginered superhhuman that can spit acid( so no kissing btw) and bend steel like its made of paper this would be a problem as i am sure no women would survive the pelvis shattering moment, no joke intended, never mind be able to concive and carry a child to term after such trama.

as for chaos, well it is chaos and anything can go i guess.

htsmithium said:

1. While this is of course something that might play into it there have been several warrior cultures on earth who were not afraid get together with chicks and who could still be very aggressive. Hence I do not think that a repressed sexuality would be the source for aggression in Marines that would be chosen.

2. I can't say that I'm much of an expert either but I do not think that Marines are THAT powerful. I must confess to doubt that they can literally fuck a person to death. I kind of figured that the acid thing was only made with a conscious choice and not constantly on and even with an orgasm you, or at least I, don't loose control like some animal. As far as I can tell its entirely possible to hold back even if for a second I would loose control.