i ove how peoples understanding of x-wing is always evolving. i once thought swarm tactics was crap but when i saw how good it was i ran it on wedge to support rookie pilots and vadercto support academy pilots. i also recently realised how good evade tokens r and how important they r for keeping your ties in the game whereas previously i would at times go for focus and regret not rolling any focus icons when defending :(

The_Brown_Bomber said:

You really learn to appreciate -- or hate -- Evade tokens in an Imperial vs. Imperial match-up!

I also love how FFG seems to be keeping an eye on what tactics are being used.  The bomb mechanics introduced in the next wave seem like a direct response to the prevalence of TIE swarms, adding a very real threat to keeping your ships bunched closed together.

DailyRich said:

Seismic Charges and Assault Missiles are a real deterrent to playing swarms. Area effect weapons do indeed discourage swarms.

DailyRich said:

tactics will just change imo. swarms will still be a strong strategy and the presence of bombs will not discourage them only make people think a lil more about how they swarm and when they swarm. it might just mean they break off into 2 separate formations of 3-4 ships for some of the time and reform as a larger swarm once the threat of bombs has passed in a given game :)

It's kinda strange how people are complaining that the TIEs cost too little, and how the Rebels are at a disadvantage, but posting results of Rebels consistently winning. 

So, is every Rebel player just that much better than the Imperials they are playing against?

i kinda doubt it.

Maybe, just maybe the game is actually really well balanced. 

The Amazing Flight Lizard said:

In the first Kessel Run event I was at, Rebel squads took the top three places.

As Rebels, you can't just charge into the massed Imperial guns. You need to maneuver and force the Imperial swarm to maneuver, which is hard for the Imperials because they have more ships. In the first Kessel Run game I played I had 8 TIEs against three X-Wings and a Y-Wing. I lost three TIEs and killed NOTHING because the Rebel player forced me to maneuver through asteroids and I got all screwed up.

Stormtrooper721 said:

i played 4 x-wings at my kessel run event. in one match vs 6 imperials (5 ties plus vader) her started in a tight formation of 2-2-2 with vader anf howlrunner at the back. he had a straught run thru asteroiods on my left flank so i sent 3 ships into the centre and used a sngle asteroid for cover while punching into his squad from the side, he was left in disarray and was forced to break formation, losing vader soon after :) i lost a red squadron pilot (other piolts were wedge +2 rookies) but fhe ended up conceeding as his remaining 3 ties were hopelessly out-classed :)

Well everybody has his experiences but i gotta say we tested quite a lot of (rebel) builds and tactics against imperial swarms. I playtested with a friend quite a lot and we are experienced tabletop gamers. We saw the potential of swarm tactics and also maxed out Academy pilots pretty early after release.

By swarm i mean at least 7 Imperial ships. To me 6 is not a swarm… Also i speak strictly wave 1. Assault and homing missiles might fix the problem in Wave  2. Which we can't get yet. There was no Kessel run event in my local store and we can't yet get our hands on the W2 ships.

We have tested 7 Academy pilots with Gundark or Nightbeast. Second list was a 7-ship swarm with Howlrunner, Mauler each with Swarm tactics and 5 Academy. Both builds are very potent versus Rebels.

We tested against 3 and 4-ship rebel builds with 4 X-Wings or 3 plus a Y-Wing. In different configs, with and without Wedge/Biggs, Garven, Dutch and varying equipment in torpedoes and Droids. We also switched fleets between every game so player skill can't really be taken into account.

The results are alarmimg. In some 10 -12 games there has been no Rebel Victory by tournament rules. I dont say this is statistically relevant, but it points in one direction pretty clearly. It also says nothing about Imperial mirror matches for such swarm lists. But against rebels we had always 3-4 Ties left at the end of each game while rebels were in 80% of cases wiped out after 60min.

We have identified two reasons for such a dominance.

1. Tie fighters in general, but especially academy pilots seem to be undercosted by 1-2 points. Alternatively X-Wings seem overcosted by 1 point. Y-Wings are pretty damn sure overcosted by 2 points even with ion turret. It should be possible to field 5 plain X-Wing rookies in 100 points if you ask me. Or made impossible to field 8 imperial fighters in 100 points. Two ties versus one X-Wing or Y-Wing is not balanced and that became clearer with every game we made. Another possibility would be to make Tie Fighters only 2 Hit points but idk if that is a good choice really

2. The Evasion action is possibly too strong. You do sacrifice an offensive option but it is basically 1 shield per Fighter per turn if you don't Koiogran. It is also a 100% chance action. Even focused rebel fire including Wedge and torpedoes does not always succeed in downing a tie. And the return fire is quite devastating despite what you might expect. Rebel players just get attritioned to death by exchanging a kill for a kill pretty often. Imps can afford this rebels can not… You might say yes this is the way imps are supposed to be, but Rebels just have no answer to this but extreme dice luck…

I am not claiming that this imperial build is imvincible but even in the games we felt dice luck was on rebel side they could simply not kill Tie's fast enough. Even dense asteroid fields changed nothing about it. I don't really see how rebels could reliably counter this with Wave1 cards only. I feel this hame is mot yet optimally balanced. I hope this will change but i kinda doubt it when i see Firespray vs. Falcon… The rebels seem to have points in the wrong spots they don't need and lack defensive options except the A-Wing.

I still gotta say i adore this game and this is in no way to be seen as a rant post. I just wanted to share my anecdotal evidence for something i feel a little unbalanced.

First time posting on here…

   I saw the talk about Y-wings being underpowered and after playing with them today (i've been demoing at the local shop in penrith australia) and been using X-wings, Ties, Tie interceptors and Tie advanced (I won 2 after I had 1 demo and brought some imps and entered a kessel run starting 5 minutes after my demo finished) and I have to say that the Y-wings seem pretty crazy with ion cannons in an asteroid feild.

   As a bit of a background the games we have been playing and demoing have all been asteroid furballs and some of the people on their 3rd and 4th games playing off against each other and kinda learning some tactics for the game where trying them out….  and today a 2x Y-wing 2x X-wing fleet (one being biggs to draw fire) was rediculous they can hug the asteroids and reduce return fire quite well once they start ioning out the ties they can get in blinds and see it dead and you use the xwings to try and to get the numbers even early even if ti means exposing them a little.

as a side note the imperial flight was 3 tie's 2 interceptors 1 advanced with cluster missles.

  played both with and against them, and seems like 2 in a 4 ship build will get you a lot of mileage with ion cannons…

a 3 ship 2 Y-wings and biggs build nearly over ran the same imp fleet (proton torp alphaing granted bit of luck) lost out in the end imo due to the lack of the second x-wing to draw shots and pump some more early kills.

  Seems like if you are running Y-wings biggs is a must for an escort so you can toss out early damage and not get too shot up try to whittle numbers down to a point where you can ion away in blind spots….

It's deffinetly a ship designed to win against elite fleets and not the swarm strategy though.

akenatum said:

you are of course absolutely right.

Elite imperial and rebel builds fear Y-Wings. I once managed to hit vater when he had a stress token. I then ionized him for 2 more turns and he flew off the table. I had a good laugh. I mean the Y-Wing is until the Firespray will arrive the only ship with a crowd control effect. But if you have more than 6 imp ships it's just too much to handle and it lacks the necessary firepower. Perhaps the ship is not that bad but in the Wave 1 Meta it's not worth it in my opinion. And i still think its overcosted by 1-2 points therefore!

ForceM said:

i agree the academy pilots r too cheap and that it should be possible to fly 5 x-wings for 100 points. now that these ships (rookies and academy piolots) have been set in price, merely changing the total squad pts u build with will not help and might even make things worse. id say in general the imperial squads did alot better and appeared in greater numbers at kessel run evens (u can argue that if more rebel squads showed up more would have won) but imo more players went with imperials because of the reasons you listed. an intersting side point is that imperials are more skill intensive to play, esp in a swarm as you have a greater margin for error and alot more decisions to make each turn. im sure the designers have and are looking into play balance issues and at a glance the wave2 ships and expansions will help both sides tremendously, time will tell if its is the rebels that will get more help, perhaps they will.