Stormtrooper721 said:

or use R2F2. actually, WHY NOT BOTH?

crimzonteerz said:

A 2/2/3/3 fighter is not very different from the 3/2/3/2 X-wing. A 2/1/5/3 fighter, on the other hand, is a completely different beast altogether: almost twice as tough, but with a much harder time evading shots. If I'm designing the game, I go for the second option--the one that is immediately and obviously different, even before you put it on the table.

Also note that, after Wave 3, we'll have one fighter each with agility 1, 2, and 3. I doubt that's a coincidence, nor is it a coincidence that the YT-1300 has the agility of a Y-wing rather than an X-wing.

And where the Y-wing's hull rating is concerned, there are two ways to look at it: the Y-wing is heavily armored, for a fighter, and it's also an older, simpler model with a lot of redundancy. If a hole does get punched in it, there are so few truly vital components that your opponent is unlikely to hit anything that can't be repaired, rerouted, or in a pinch simply done without.

As a comparison and additional justification, look at the A-wing. It's lightly armored out of a desire to keep its mass low, but it's also compact and full of state-of-the-art tech. If you get through its armor, you're almost guaranteed to hit something mission-critical (I mean, look what happened to poor Arvel Skynyrd).

I really prefer the Y-wing's current stats.

I think the Vorpal Sword's point are great. (snicker-snack!)

I just don't understand what you meant by this: "Also note that, after Wave 3, we'll have one fighter each with agility 1, 2, and 3. I doubt that's a coincidence, nor is it a coincidence that the YT-1300 has the agility of a Y-wing rather than an X-wing."

 I guess you mean on the Rebel side only, and mean "fighter" to not include the YT freighter.

But I love that the ships are different. And I think the game balance is great.

Just like I kept representing in that other thread about the TIE Defender, you can't get too caught up in having the stats in exact mathematical proportion to the stats for these fighters in some other game or medium. If a novel or the old PC games uses some numeric rating for either pseudo-technical flavor, or for the balance of play in THAT game, then that may not translate into this totally different type of game.

The stats are great because they use small whole numbers, and need no "calculations" to use, but they represent a great variety of ship types even with the simplicity of the structure.

I don't think that the Y-Wing should have 2 agility, as the 1 agility is rather fitting from a background perspective. However, I [i]do[/i] think that the Y-Wing should be a point or two cheaper. 18 points for 2 attack and 1 agility is simply not a good deal, even with 8HP; those hit points just melt away in the face of close-range volleys of 3 or 4 attack dice. 

Y-Wings with Ion  Cannons are great, but Y-Wings [i]without[/i] Ion Cannons seem rather underpowered to me. Has anyone found success in employing normal Y-Wings? The dilemma of needing to be at Range 1 to be effective yet getting ripped apart by enemies at Range 1 is frustrating. I'd take an extra agility dice over that 3HP any day. Maybe if more of it was concentrated in the shields, I guess? 4HP/4 shields would be much better for avoiding the crippling critical damage that Y-Wings soak up so easily. 

if you are flying without ion cannons, they can easily do range 1 exchanges with other ships without any problem, mainly due to their high hp. the problem with them is getting into range 1

As someone who plays against a friend who uses 2 ywings regularly they really dont need the extra agility. The amount of shooting i have to put into one to take it down is ridiculous. The amount of damage ywings with upgrades can dish out is equally ridiculous. They aren't meant to be maneuverable. Look at them. Its a box with engines. 

I think 2 agility would make them very unbalanced, they are almost a no brainer selection for a rebel fleet as it is (i have yet to play a rebel fleet without at least 1)

deviant-dj said:

I ran a 4-ship x-wing build at my Kessel run, and got 3rd out of 10. I was the highest placed rebel squad, and could have gotten 2nd if I hadn't been so bad at crashing into asteroids. Y-wings just don't have the bite you need against a swarm.

Duraham said:

3 attack dice and a target lock against 3 agility just doesn't cut it when you are eating 3 or even 4 attack dice against 1 agility in return, especially when your opponent is fielding a swarm. That extra 3HP just vanishes. God help you if you're fighting Wedge.

I just don't think that the naked Y-Wing with 2 pilot skill is worth 18 points; they can't throw enough dice to deal damage reliably to TIEs, especially Evading ones, and the Y-Wing still blows apart very quickly under concentrated fire thanks to its appallingly low defense. Ironically, the Y-Wing appears to be much more effective against Rebel lists, as the lower evasion of Rebel ships and the smaller squadron size means  that Y-Wings can hit more reliably and can easily lock down a significant portion of the enemy squadron with their ion cannons. 

edit: nevermind

deviant-dj said:

I agree….I think they are fine right were they are……I'm lucky in my area nobody is running Imperial swarms or 4 X-wing squadrons so I get away with a Gold Squadron build with “Dutch” leading, which is a lot of fun.

I always got the impression that the Y-wing we use in the miniatures game represents the more ramshackle, held together with sticky tape sort of Y-Wing.  The fighters low agility is probably also 1 to represent it's outdated design and equipment compared to the more modern TIE series.  Also people are forgetting that in Return you see Y-Wing's taking on fighters and winning, it's just pretty rare.

My experience of the games rules is that they work fine since they take 8 hits to down and can do some nasty damage with good die rolls.  The imps are already fighting with a disadvantage with having no shields, astromechs, torpedoes, missiles and in some cases no pilot skills.  There has to be some drawback to allow imperial players to shoot down Y-Wings.  Also I have have had plenty of times where the imperial player has missed both shots and because of a combination of evade roll on the die a poor roll from the TIE player.

I think Y-wings are fine where they are at. They are the F-4 Phantoms of the Star Wars universe.

Think about it, with modern "jet" fighters. Any of the newer"top-line" fighters could easily take out a F-4, even though, just a generation ago it was the top-line fighter of its day. It started life as a fighter,with bombing capabilites, it was a BIG plane, was easy to spot (due to Radar, or putting out a lot of smoke with its afterburners), and could take a good bit of damage. Yet there are still F-4 variants in use today, and you can probably find some pilots that would love the chance to take one up.

Now think of the fluff, They were old (Anakin flys them in the Clone Wars), they were the best the Rebellion could get there hands on until just befor the Battle of Yavin, and the Rebellion kept them around because the trade off in maneuverability was off set by the lack of power put out by the TIE's

TIE: firepower 2 vs. X-wing maneuverability 2 is great, but the X-wing is the new, shinny fighter.

TIE fire power 2 vs. Y-wing man. 1 is still pretty good.

It is only when you get hit by a firepower 3 ship that it looks really bad. (Rebel vs.Rebel)

Here are my thoughts on the Y-Wing's Agility;

It's 1 for a reason, folks.  Think in terms of a pure Wave 1 environment for the purposes of this example;

First of all, I have yet to field a Y-Wing without an Ion Turret, and I play all my games at 100 points.  When I'm in a Y-Wing kind of mood I have two ways of running it; 3 Gold Squadrons and an X-Wing, or Horton/Dutch and an X-Wing (usually Wedge).

If you're running 3 Golds against another Rebel list that does not include any Y-Wings, I would say that accounting for average die rolling, once you get through the inital pass, you've pretty much got the game wrapped up; at best, your opponent has 4 ships, and if you're causing 3 ships a turn to get Ion Tokens, your lone X-Wing can start mopping up the helpless ships one by one.

3 shots versus the 2 Agility of an X-Wing is brutal.  If you're able to Target Lock/Ion Cannon away and pull 3 hits, there's nothing they can do.  Even 2 hits can still go your way, depending on whether there's Focus tokens involved, and what the defense dice say.

2 Y-Wings and Wedge gives similar results; you're not able to shut down the whole Rebel list in one pass, but Wedge vs X-Wings is just nasty.  He'll help get the killing done fast, while your elite Y-Wings keep the other two ships locked down.  This one requires a bit more thought into your movement, as you need to ensure Dutch is able to donate a Target Lock ideally to Wedge each turn, and Horton works best if you can Ion at Range 2 for the re-rolling of blanks.  This frees up his Target Lock action to be used as a Focus to keep his defense up.

Either list vs Rebels with one Y-Wing just requires you to neutralize the lone Y-Wing ASAP, then you're all set.  Versus another 2+ Y-Wings, it's going to be slow and kind of lame.

Wedge will totally ruin your day though, but since he can't kill a Y-Wing with one shot, you have your 8 total damage points (3 shields, 5 hull) to help you survive the initial pass, and then you're going to want to keep him zapped with the Ion token every turn possible, so he can't bring his weapons to bear on you.

Short version; in a Rebel mirror match in Wave 1, if you brought solid Y-Wing support to the board and your opponent didn't, then you're at an advantage, barring your own ability (or lack thereof) to move around the board to set up a good first pass.

Against Imperials is a little more tricky.  You're going to want to take a look at the opponent's list carefully and look for some red flags;

Howlrunner, Mauler Mithel, a TIE Advanced with missiles, and 8 Academy Pilots

If none of those elements are present, you'll probably be ok.  The TIE's can only shoot twice outside of Range 1, which means they can slowly erode your shields and hull, but not fast enough before the initial pass.  In this matchup, I'd edge out the 3 Y-Wings versus the Elite 2, just because they can get that extra Ion token out each turn, potentially.  Again, it'll come down to your ability to pilot the ships, but for the most part, there won't be enough against you to worry about.  Backstabber's extra die is easily neutralized by Ion.

Now, if the above elements are present, you've got to be very smart with your target allocation.  I would get Mauler out of the picture as soon as its practical to do so, as he can wreck your Y-Wings at Range 1, rolling 4 dice vs your 1 to defend.  Add in a Howlrunner escort and a Focus token, and you're going to start losing ships.

Against 8 Academy Pilots, you can expect the opponent to try and focus-fire out your Y's one at a time, which will work quite well since each TIE can shoot twice vs your 1 defense die.  You'll not be able to stand up for too long, so you're going to have to be really on point with your movements, and hope your Ions disrupt them long enough for you to cut their numbers down.  If you can get 3-4 of them down quickly, you'll be able to turn the tides nicely.

I don't think Agility 1 is too low at all for what you get.  It would be so cheap playing in Wave 1 against Y's if they were Agility 2.  Wave 2 environment is a whole different story, though.  TIE Interceptors can chew them up with 3 shots, and Firespray mines could get tricky to move around, not to mention the rear fire arc of the Firespray means that you may take some return damage despite your Ion tokens moving the ship's front arc out of harm's way.

Of course, there's also other upgrades from Wave 2 that can help the venerable Y-Wing along, but I won't weigh in on that until I've got a lot of proper Wave 2 matches under my belt.

I hope the Y-Wing doesn't get shelved in Wave 2, but if it does, at least there's more ship variety to play with, so I won't feel too bad about it.  Ultimately, if you want a Agility 2 Y-Wing, spring for the Stealth device.  It's points, but then I doubt FFG would "errata" the Y-Wing to be Agility 2 without a points adjustment anyways.  THAT would be some overpowered stuff if they did.  An Agility 2 Gold Squadron Y-Wing with Ion Turret for 25 points AND Agility 2?! I'd never take an X-Wing again…in Wave 1 at least.

Coming as a player who likes running one or two y-wings, my take on this is if your opponent is focus firing on your y-wing and not on the more flimsy x-wings they are doing their job.

Give your opponent the awful choice between firing on a y-wing at range one or an x-wing at range 2 or 3, or better yet, maneuver your x-wings to flank while the y-wings tie them up at range 1. Believe me, the y-wings can take a beating as long as the x-wings keep on pounding.

Honestly, i don't think Y-Wings should have 2 Agility. But i think they are just overcosted by 2 points each. A 16 point Gold squadron is much easier to justify in a list vs a 12 point academy in my opinion.

One thing i don't get either is the Firespray. Why 2 agility. It might be manoeuvrable but it's huge… And the falcon is less agile as a Firespray. Well idk!