i concede that i am not an experienced pilot and am adjusting to x-wing after yrs of playing wins of war wwi. 

I will have to adapt my tactics to cope with these new rules for overlapping. 

i do think house rules will emerge to tweek the rules for personal tastes.

what r peoples thoughts on simultaneous movement for less skilled pilots with the top pilots still having hidden movement and actions? This house rule could be adapted to include all legendary pilots or all pilots of skill 5 or better?

The rule is stupid, but not quite for the reason you state. Simultaneous movement isn't the answer, in my opinion.  Bad things should happen when you collide with another ship, but both ships should be similarly affected.  The rule is stupid because of the way it affects theme. The game takes place in space. FFG does make note of this in the rules..somewhere. It's a reason why ships can fly "through" each other. In this case, the ships are flying over or under each other. When a ship ends its movement overlapping another ship, they are always flying in the exact same limited space. Ok. Ok with that.  So I guess the rules are trying to simulate a near miss in this instance. A near miss which causes a pilot to panic and lose his action. A near miss which only causes one pilot in the cold dark of space to fear for his life from collision and lose his action. A near miss which prevents both pilots from shooting each other even though they are flying in the exact same limited space, but does nothing to prevent the pilots from shooting at any other ship. Ok. The no shoot rule is fine. It can be justified by the idea of "the ships are flying too fast to shoot at each other as they are passing by, but removing the action of only one of the pilots is thematically ridiculous and it does create a potentially abusable advantage. Bad things should still happen because it's a friggin' pain to back up ships. Movement gets fudged. Ships get bumped. But them's the rules of the game. We need to learn to work with them for tournament play.   As a house rule, maybe let both ships take actions and not shoot at each other? If you want to play it as a collision, each ship takes damage equal to the speed of  its current manuever, then roll agility dice equal to the same number with evades cancelling the damage. Focus is usable by the ship being run into. Or, just have each ship roll an attack die. On a hit, it takes a hit, on a blank or focus, nothing, on a crit….total destruction.  Wheeeeee.

 I agree, I'm disatisfied with the current overlap rules as well. If there is going to be any effect at all for overlapping, the effect should be the same as for obstacles.

Maneuvering your ships is the key to victory… if you are having a problem with crashing into ships and losing your actions then you are likely just not choosing your maneuvers well enough. It can happen to any of us at one time or another but if it is happening so much that its really an issue, odds are you are just choosing your maneuvers poorly. I have won my last 2 games against an Empire player because he is still pretty new to the game and constantly loses actions to this. He  crashes into his own ships, he crashes into the ships that I lay out as blockers ( a valid tactic I have used when I know that a guy is just going to continue to be unimaginative and just fly straight at me I will throw a rookie pilot in his path for him to crash into and then lay into him with Wedge while he has no action and can't attack- I took out Vader in 2 turns doing this one game and then had my way with the rest of his fragile Ties). Granted I usually play Rebels and with them you have to fly like a wildman ( I have a large empire fleet but rarely use them as everyone else I play seem to want to play them every time which is fine by me because I have won 8 straight games with the rebellion)… when I am the rebellion, I spend half the game stressed… I fly hard… you have to if you want to outmaneuver the nimble Ties that will likely be outnumbering you as well. While focus/ target lock and other actions are great, so is not smashing into everything because you are flying staright at each other like robots and overlapping bases every turn. I would rather be unorthodox… you would be surprised how amazing it can be when you give up an obvious chance to attack this turn for 3 staright turns of unanswered attacks because you are behind them on a part of the table where a koigran is just to dangerous for them.

Bottom line, the rules are great the way they are… they punish you for thinking inside the box too much. Will you occassionally genuinely surprise each other and crash into each other and lose an action or chance to attack, sure… if it happens repeatedly  though, odds are, its your fault. You just need to outthink your opponent a little better. Its almost like poker. Once you learn his tendencies, you can anticipate him. If he is unpredictable… well then, the game just becomes a work of art… in those cases, it truly does feel like Darth Vader is flying against Wedge Antilles.

And if the effect was the same for both pilots then there is less of an advanatge for the higher skilled pilot. I have a higher skill, I pay more points, I should have an appropriate advanatge that the higher skill gives me. You move first, I haven't moved yet… you know that I am higher skilled and will not move until after you do… YOU KNOW THIS! AND YOU HIT ME ANYWAY! Why exactly should I lose my action as well? I move after you "crash" into me and I move away from you and keep my action because I am not overlapping a base after my move. Why exactly should I be punished because you are a ham and egger and ran into me before I even moved? Thats like hitting a parked car on the side of the street and saying that its partly my fault… no no no my friend,,  the rules are ok by me when it comes to a lower skilled pilot overlapping me and losing his action and then I move away and keep mine and then we both get to attack still.

Baphomet69 said:

Baphomet69 said:

its good to see some new points of discussion here. I personally dont buy into the 'its in the rules so it has to be followed' approach. Even with wings of war there were rules which irked ppl. the one that springs to mind in altitude adding complexity without really adding enough to the game itself. Using House Rules are up to you. Use them or not, its your house!

Ok back to X-Wing. Lets try and find solutions for improving/modifying the Overlapping Rule for people like us 3 (there must be more out there right?) who are dissatisfied with the current rule.

I agree that both ships with overlapping bases should be effected equally.

Lets look at Collision rules with objects such as asteroids. The player rolls a single attack die on themselves and takes that result. Id suggest that overlapping bases cause no damage but base to peg/peg to base overlaps do the same thing as a collision. Now i think that both pilots should be able to evade collision damage altogether by rolling ONE defense die to see if they squeek past without damage.

There is still the issue of what happens when the active players ship does not pass completely through another ships base. It makes sense that they cannot shoot eachother. I would suggest the the same roll that u make for the initial overlapping of peg/base is also used to determine whether any action is possible or if your action is cancelled immediately.

Ok things are taking shape but lets just summarise how MY HOUSE RULES for overlapping bases might work (still tinkering tho and these need testing):

1) overlapping bases only. This  will cause no damage but may cause loss of your action. both ships roll one defense die (2 if u have expert handling pilot skill)

if either player rolls the evade icon they either keep the action they have placed or can now choose an action. if either ship fails to roll the evade icon then their action is cancelled, this will mean removing any focus or evade tokens currently placed (the ship that is not the active players ship). If the Non-active players ship already has an evade token should they get one additional defense die? Perhaps as they r alreafy taking defenseive action right. this added bonus will make the defensice action slightly better as it has a dual purpose. hmm seems like a good idea. needs testing tho.

2) overlapping peg to base AND base to peg, Both pilots roll a defense die (or perhaps only the pilot with the highest pilot skill? and the lesser pilot takes automatic damage?). Failure to roll an evade icon results in that player taking one damage card. i actually like the idea in theory of the better pilots getting a defense die or a bonus but im not sure how this will play out.

any thought and feedback are welcome.

 See, to me that is overly complicated. For me, just follow the current overlap rule (bases touching), but add in 'roll one attack die per ship, then roll one evasion per ship'. Easy peasy.

Though I probably would not implement it as a house rule, so as not to get used to it and then go play a tourney… That would mess with my head.

Baphomet69 said:

you might be right. there dioes need to be a balance between complexity and playability, I am just trying to find it. To me the current rule is too simple and i can understand why the designers wanted this to be so. having complex rules for new players is not the best. i do think the rules WILL change in future sets, even if we just see OPTIONAL RULES appearing that cater for everyones tastes.

The flying into a parked car example listed earlier in this thread IS simplistic and lends weight to my suggestion for simultaneous movement. All ships are in motion and not 'parked'. why not keep things simple and say that the highest pilot skill keeps his actions, even when bases overlap. no roll. simple. lesser pilots overlapping with bases will still lose their action (as stated in the rules). i know u can argue that the better pilot should not overlap in the 1st place if he chooses the right manouvre but he will, eventually overlap and probably it will be through no fault of his own. Using ships as 'blockers' doesnt fit the theme for me but if this is what we have to do to win, then yes players will do it because we all want to win.

 Your plan doesn't account for barrel rolls

The important things to remember when moving are:

1. Higher skilled pilots move last

2. All ships have to move at least [1] space

Why don't you try aiming for the spot that the lower skilled pilots were last? That way, you don't have to collide with anything. Then mix it up a bit so that you don't get too predictable.

 good tip, thanks.

Practice helps.

The first couple games I played as the Empire looked like my squad had just left the cantina after a night of heavy drinking.  With some experience you can plan moves better and anticipate enemy movements.  I've yet to find forcing collisions as a good plan though.  You need several Ties to block various angles of escape, and then to get ships into thos positions typically puts them at odd angles where they can't do anything anyways.  I'd rather set them up to focus fire on a ship than try to make the enemy lose an action.

As for the greater skilled pilot losing his action as opposed to the rookies.  This vexxed me for awhile, but I actually came across a thematic explanation that has worked for explaining it to others.  The fighters are all moving in space at the same time, we just take turns moving them in the game for simplicity.  The rookie pilots are dedicating themselves to an action before they really know whats going on…they aren't experienced enough to think on the fly (no pun intended).  The experienced pilots are reacting to the situation presented to them during the battle, so they can react to other pilots actions. So far this explains the turn order system in place.

Academy Tie moves and picks focus hoping someone will fall into his firing arc so he can shoot them.  Wedge either ends up with a firing solution on the tie and picks focus/target lock or end up in the Tie's firing arc and picks focus to survive the blast.

Rookie Xwing moves and picks focus as he has no idea if anyone will be in his arc or he'll be in someone else's arc.  Mauler can then move and decide if he needs to roll out of the Rookie's arc, or into a firing position, or if rolling won't help, he can take an evade, or if he has a firing solution he can go with focus.

Now for the collisions, just expand the logic a bit.  The rookie/academy pilot are dedicating themselves to a move and action.  They have no concern about who's behind them, beside them, above them, or behind them.  They are flying and deciding on an action and really hopeing it will be the right thing to do.  Wedge/Mauler are also flying towards that same position and waiting until they line up a shot to decide on what action to perform when suddenly the collision alarms go off and an enemy ship flies right in front of them.  Instead of target locking, rolling, evading, or focusing, the experienced pilot is forced to perform an evasive manuever to avoid collision.  The manuever puts them in a different location than they expected and made a plan for.  It also means instead of cooly gliding into an attack position and getting a target lock they had to do everything to avoid the collision.  The rookie was already dedicated to his move and didn't have the piloting skill to react to and avoid the collision, so the more experienced pilot had to make the sacrifice to avoid the rookie.

Much like that rookie high school driver who ran the stop sign because he was too busy texting, you the experienced adult driver who was paying attention to traffic needs to avoid the collision instead of continuing through the intersection and changing the radio station as you had planned.  The high school kid continued driving as he had planned and continued texting without any idea that he was nearly T-boned for running a stop sign.

Ta-da!  Thematic explanation with real life analogy.

 @ Strombole: Awesome response. I would love to play against you just to see you in action, even if I got whooped. Sounds like it would be a sight to behold!

@ kmanweiss: Excellent analogy and thematic explanation. Gotta say that if it were between losing my action or dealing damage to both me and my opponent, I'd choose to lose an action every time. Although I guess I can see where other people would just like to have that option open to them, rather than decided for them.

kmanweiss said:

impressive explaination. most impressive. it all makes sense. thanx!

 I love the rules as written. 

It makes sense that when moving into the space occupied by another ship a pilot has to avoid a collision, thus spending ther attention and losing their action. 

More importantly, from an abstract rules perspective, the rule is simple and elegant. Some of the suggestions made in this thread are pretty complicated and cumbersome.

I love using cheap ties to swarm the likely path of an expensive x-wing pilots likely movement path. The alliance can sometimes do similar maneuvers.

The point is: it really matters how you move. Risk management is the whole game.

Daveydavedave said:

yes. i can see now that cheap guys is a gr8 option for u if u r going to maximize the rules. quite clever work by the designers.