I'm a bit confused about your desired outcome for this situation.  It sounds like you're looking for a full-proof way to wind up behind the X-wing, as you've stated that a head-to-head path would be undesirable, and (obviously) ending up with the X-wing behind you would be less than optimal.

Unfortunately, there's no guaranteed way to make this happen.  It sounds like the entire scenario is predicated on the fact that you know the X-wing will continue making sharp 2 turns.  And you simply can't know that.

Hell, if I were one on one in an X-wing vs. a TIE, I wouldn't keep trying to loop around on it.  I'd pull out of the loop with a straight 4, try to get as much distance as I could, pull a Koiogran turn, and force a head-on-head fight, where the X-wing has a decided advantage.  If I were in the TIE, my thought process would be much the same.  Get out of there with a straight 5, outrun the X-wing, get turned around, and play chicken, hoping the X-wing misjudges which way I'll turn, allowing me to slip in behind it.

Unfortunately, in the stated situation, if you're the one in the TIE, you're at a disadvantage, plain and simple.

I'll do my best to explain.  To keep things clear, I'll use math-style location and direction indications (0° is at "3 o'clock", numbering is counter clockwise).

Start with the X-Wing at some location facing 90° and the TIE facing 270° and to the "left" (180° direction) of the X-Wing.  They've been circling counter clockwise to this point.

Move 1: The X-Wing continues to make speed 3, 90° turns to the left.  The imperial player changes their mind and instead has the TIE make a speed 1, 90° turn to the right.  Both ships are now facing 180°.  The TIE is "below" (the 270° direction) the X-Wing.  From my testing, the TIE usually ends up outside of the X-Wing's firing arc still.

Move 2: The ships make the same move again.  The X-Wing is now facing 270° and the TIE is facing 90°.  This is the dangerous point for the TIE.  If the spacing was wrong, it could be going head-to-head.  If the spacing was right, the TIE ends up behind the X-Wing (the ships are now back to back).

Move 3: The ships make the same move again.  The X-Wing is now facing 0°.  The TIE is also facing 0° and is behind the X-Wing.  A barrel roll might be needed to line up the shot still.

Move 4: The TIE can now move into single circle fighting if the rebel player doesn't change strategy.  Barrel rolls will probably still be needed occasionally to stay lined up on target (since you don't make a perfect circle while moving due to adding the ship's base to moves).

One note though: the game will always be limited in your ability to perform single circle flights due to the simultaneous nature of movement choices.  Unlike an actual dogfight, the trailing pilot isn't able to react to the lead pilots turn to stay on their tail, which allows the lead pilot to escape easily.  For instance, if you did maneuver the TIE into a close trail position on an X-Wing while circling, the X-Wing could take a speed 4, K-Turn while the TIE continued the circle to have a good broad-side shot at the TIE.

I understand the scenario you just outlined.  But I don't understand the point of analyzing a scenario where the actions of the opponent (in this case, the X-wing) are pre-scripted.

There's an awful lot of "ifs" and assumptions made in that scenario about what the X-wing player will do.  At the very least, making the third hard left 3 is, arguably, a boneheaded move, as it puts your back to the TIE who can easy turn into pursuit.

I guess if the entire scenario is predicated on the fact that the X-wing player will continue making hard left 3 turns, then….okay, sure.  But that's not a very interesting scenario to consider.

X-wing vs. TIE, assuming both are unharmed, is a clear disadvantage for the TIE.  At that point, you're really banking on the dice gods smiling upon you.  Even if you could slip in behind the X-wing, chances are very good that you're going to wind up head-to-head sooner rather than later, unless the X-wing player has an irrational fear of Koiogran turns.

I think the basic idea is that in "real life" the more maneuverable fighter would be able to cut inside the turn of the slower fighter and go from that position to tailing.  I was just suggesting a way to break out of the stalemate in a way that wasn't too much of a disadvantage for the TIE.  Sure, the X-Wing would be unlikely to continue the circle once the TIE changed direction, but at least the imperial player is dictating the terms that way.

R2D2 said:

You asked about a stalemate not about whats best for the TiE.  There is no stalemate there.

Okay.  That makes me sense.  That you guys were presenting the situation in a canned scenario was misleading to me.

The word "abstraction" gets thrown around a lot on here, and while it might seem a cop-out, I have to go with it in this scenario.  Yes, TIE Fighters are a bit more maneuverable than X-wings (outside of atmo, anyways).  Even so, game simplicity is more desirable than realism in my mind, and restricting ships to 45/90 degree turns I feel was a good decision on the designer's part.  I COULD see there being a 180 degree arc turn at some point.

It's worth mentioning that all ships have the same number of maneuvers due to the design of the dials.  Thus, the only differences in maneuverability come from how many of those moves are green and red.  Other than green/red distinctions, the only differences are in what maneuvers ships can perform, and there will always been something one ship can do that another can't, and vice versa.  For example, a TIE Fighter can perform a sharp 1 turn whereas a X-wing can't, but at the same time, an X-wing can perform a soft 1 whereas a TIE cannot.

Tawnos said:

Funny. I could have sworn that the TIE fighter had 16 options, while the X-wing and TIE Advanced had 15 options. Can anybody verify?

Tawnos: there is a 180 degree turn… the immelman aka koiogran

I agree that turning to "catch" your opponent is kinda silly.  Both players can chase all day long, or the rebel player can get smart and just move away at full speed.  It's almost always better for an X-Wing to take a movement round or 2 to get distance and then close again on the tie.  Distance creates a situation where barrel rolls are largely useless and the tie has no hope of getting behind the x-wing.  Meanwhile the x-wing has time to lock and focus.  Then the best the tie can hope for is a head on fire fight (assuming a 1v1 fight with no asteroids etc).

Before you say "no, Ties are faster in a straight movement than X-Wings" remember that this game is all about faking out your opponent and bluffing.  On the turn you leave the circle of perpetual chasing, the tie player will presumably do another turn.  This gives you all the time you could possibly need to get distance and make a move to loop back around for a shot.

The koiogran breaks the movement stalemate, but at the cost of stress.

Whoops, you're quite correct.  I forgot about the 3 Koiogran turn the TIEs can do.

Parakitor said:

Parakitor said:

They do. At the 1 speed, TIEs can do sharp turns only, while X-Wings can do banks and straight. They both share the entire gamut of 2 speed turns and straight, though at different colors. So X-Wings have 1 more maneuver at 2 speed or under.

But then we move on to 3 speed, and while the TIE can match the X-Wing maneuver for maneuver, it gains an extra maneuver with the 3 Koigran. Both ships share a 4 straight and 4 Koigran, so at this point, the TIE and X-Wing both have 15 maneuvers accounted for… and then the TIE Fighter gets a 5 straight on top of that.

Daveydavedave said:

Daveydavedave said:

I know.  I meant that I could see them adding a 180 degree ARC turn template.

Anyone who's played using the full rules will tell you that TIEs are more maneuverable than the Rebel ships.

The game doesn't have to simulate circle flow dogfighting because we never see circle flow dogfights in the movies.

And that sort of dogfighting is boring. I don't see the fun in doing nothing but circles for several turns until a few-degree difference in turning radius puts one ship or the other in a firing position.

DagobahDave said:

See, this is very subjective and situational.  Yes, TIEs have a higher top speed and, in general, can make sharper turns.  This doesn't make them more maneuverable than X-wings.  It's very easy to make a TIE overshoot its target by flying slow, as they can't make a straight 1.  And I can't tell you how many times I've desperately wished I could perform a soft 1 bank in a TIE.

Maneuverability is incredibly situational, and I don't see the TIEs as necessarily have a general advantage in that regard.

R2D2 said:

That's what I was trying to communicate as well.  Having never got into that situation, I was trying to doodle it out on paper, but I came to the conclusion that just doing a tight circle of 90 degree 1 turns would put you in a firing position to get the X-Wing.  It's hard to explain without some serious visuals.

Also, if you were playing with the basic rules, wouldn't the Target Lock not be allowed?  Maybe that's why you had a tough time of it, worrying about breaking off.  From what I gather with the basic rules, you just move and shoot; no actions, no upgrade cards, no stress tokens.