ScottieATF said:

It's nice to get an official response.  Would have been nicer if we had gotten it here on the official forums rather than via email.

Thanks for posting this.

bsmith13 said:

This doesn't clear anything up. We already know you can't perform the same action twice. The question is, is an Expert Handling action the same as a Barrel Roll action. 

My opinion is that Expert Handling allows the use of the Barrel Roll action to ships that cannot normally perform a Barrel Roll action. It is an action that performs another action.  So while Expert Handling is a different action than a Barrel Roll, the Barrel Roll that the Expert Handling executes *is* the same as the standard Barrel Roll action.

So, executing Expert Handling is technically performing 2 actions in one: 1) Expert Handling, which then triggers a 2) Barrel Roll.

So, since Expert Handling is performing an Barrel Roll, you couldn't perform a second Barrel Roll because Expert Handling has already cause one to be performed. [shrug]

rhaak said:

I agree.  This clears nothing up.  We already know that Vader can't Barrel Roll twice.  That is not the question.  The question is, if Vader uses Expert Handling, can he use Barrel Roll as a second action?  I still believe that he cannot.  But right now, opinions are like…well you know the phrase.  We can all go back and forth arguing our points, but until we get a TRUE ruling via FAQ or otherwise, you're just going to have to make a house rule to deal with it.

Roy

I see your point about nothing being cleared up…

Everyone here seems to be fixated on the "action" itself -- on TIE Fighters and TIE Advanced Fighters (which may do a barrel roll without penalty, and neglected to take into account the "effect" of a "barrel roll" -- "You may then remove 1 enemy target lock from your ship," and the pilot receives a "stress token".  The "carded action", Barrel Roll, to me, is to balance the X-Wings and TIE Advanced; which also have the ability to "target lock" enemy fighters.

That said, the developers should make an addendum to the Barrel Roll action in regards to the TIE Fighters: "When being target locked, you may perform a barrel roll; you may remove 1 enemy target lock, and receive a stress token."

SteveSpikes said:

Huh ? That doesn't make sense.

rhaak said:

I agree. Makes no sense. Barrel Roll works the way it is supposed to.  Expert Handling lets you get rid of a Target Lock.  If you're saying that the Barrel Roll action should be changed to be the same as Expert Handling, then I have to disagree.  If every TIE fighter in the game could get rid of a Target Lock simply by performing a Barrel Roll, then what is the use of a Target Lock carrying over to the next round.  The TIEs would be able to get rid of it before you could use it.  Makes No Sense.

Roy

drkjedi35 said:

I can think of more than one reason for Vader to use Expert Handling, in fact, it's fantastic for Vader.

IN ADDITION to playing "Expert Handling" (which gives him a barrel roll and an enemy target lock removal), Vader can perform one of the following actions: target lock, focus, or evade.

Just because the rules don't allow Vader to double barrel roll, doesn't mean that his second action is by any means wasted when playing "Expert Handling." 

 I think the semantic argument here in favor of "Star Fox Vader" (Do a barrel roll! Do a barrel roll!) is interesting but weak.

See if you follow my logic on this:

1. Vader gets two actions.

2. Vader chooses to do a barrel roll for action 1

3. The rule book clearly states that performing the same action 2x in one turn (even free actions) is a violation of the rules.

4. "Expert Handling" card text: "ACTION: Perform a barrel roll…"

5. Vader plays "Expert Handling" card

Conclusion: Vader's 2 selected actions are in violation of the rules.

Expert Handling is an elite pilot skill which has 3 ACTION components:

1. Perform a barrel roll (you MUST)

2. Receive a stress token if your ship doesn't have the barrel roll skill (you MUST)

3. May remove 1 enemy target lock from your ship (OPTIONAL)

If you cannot perform the first two compulsory parts of the card text, then you cannot play the card.

If you cannot barrel roll again, then you cannot play Expert Handling at all.

Expert Handling includes a barrel roll action. If you cannot perform a barrel roll action, then you cannot play the Expert Handling card.

Note: Bold, Capitals, Underline and Italics are for clarity only (not emotion).

Daveydavedave said:

First of all, please show me where I said that his second action is wasted. In no way does Expert Handling take away his second action.

You also didn't give a reason for him TO use Expert Handling.  You talked about other things he can use AFTER he uses Expert Handling.  These are all things he could still use AFTER using Barrel Roll.  My main point still stands.  For Vader, the only difference between Expert Handling and Barrel Roll is the ability to remove a Target Lock.  Therefore since he already has Barrel Roll on his card, the ability to remove a Target Lock is THE ONLY REASON why he would need to use it.  If he doesn't care about removing Target Locks, then he doesn't need to spend the 2 points on Expert Handling. 

Roy

drkjedi35 said:

Ah now I see what you meant.  You are quite right, excuse my misunderstanding.  

You are saying that for 2 points Vader only benefits from 2 of the 3 parts of the expert handling card:

Dumping a target lock and not having to take a stress token, but he doesn't benefit from the barrel roll action part of the card text, cause he can already do one anyway.

So its 2 points spent to be able to cancel 1 target lock… kinda meh for Vader.  Not bad for an X-Wing pilot tho.

I thought you were arguing that because Vader doesn't get much out of expert handling, it must be designed to allow a second barrel roll.  So I was pointing out that the card mechanic does at least make sense for single barrel roll Vader.  Although now that you mention it, expert handling probably isn't worth its point cost for Vader.

I made a similar point in the rules forum.  It's really not worth 2 points for any of the current imperial ships since they all already have barrel roll.

El_Tonio said:

Seems kid of odd they would give the imperials something that is hardly worth taking.  So, I could really see this going either way at this point and look forward to an official ruling.

Just out of curiosity, do other folks think expert handling is worth 2 points for imperial players if all it does for them is allow them to remove a target lock (i.e., since they can already do a barrel roll without it)?

 It costs a stress if you don't already have barrel roll. I actually think it is better for imperials than it is for rebels.

Hrathen said:

But, you've already done your action (i.e., expert handling/barrel roll) so you don't lose it this turn.  And, you can easily do a green move next turn so you never lose it.  So, I don't think there is much of a drawback for Rebels at all.