drkjedi35 said:

I agree this comes to timing, and can see it either way.

On one hand, if multiple effects trigger simultaneously, I would think the acting player would choose what order to resolve them in, so that you could "daisy chain" PS for the Combat Round.

On the other, if they are indeed to happen "simultaneously," it can be argued that the pilots do not get their new PS until the effects are resolved, and thus, as other have said, cannot give something they don't yet have.  I'd like to see a Dev chime in on that for tournament's sake, but personally I'd err on the side of caution and say they cannot daisy chain it.

R2D2 said:

Haha, yes, I certainly agree with my own initial position (third post ITT). I object to your assumption only because it wasn't based on an argument -- which is to say, you said you thought Swarm Tactics referred to the PS printed on the resolving pilot's card but didn't say why. (Perhaps you just assumed my earlier argument about simultaneous resolution?) And I object to Kordos's argument because it's not based on the rules of this game.

Stunami said:

I think the language of the ability does not leave room for any consideration of resolution order. Swarm Tactics is resolved by every pilot "at the start of the Combat Phase" so they would use their PS "at the start of the Combat Phase." Since no pilot has modified any other's PS via Swam Tactics "at the start of the Combat Phase" (or more precisely, since it is all going on at the same time) every pilot will use the PS printed on their card.

Stunami said:

Hmm, depends on what you mean by cautious.  So let's set aside chaining for a minute:  the Swarm Tactics ability is a trade-off mechanic.  You get to trade off having two of your fighters spaced out for using the higher of the two fighters' PS.  If we allow for chaining, does the benefit of the trade off significantly outweigh the cost, relative to the cost-benefit ratio when we're just talking about two ships?  It seems to me, without testing it obviously, that the trade off is still pretty fair.

Stunami said:

Stunami said:

This is exactly how I'm thinking.  My intuition says treat it as simultaneous.  The sequential daisy chain thing just doesn't feel right…  "I've got a bad feeling about this"

-DavicusPrime

But if chaining is possible, is that really so bad?  I mean, is that a possible game-breaker?  I have yet to play my first game.  But Stunami's report mentioned that Imps solve things with dice rather than synergies.  Maybe chaining Swarm Tactics would give them an edge that is otherwise lacking, according to Stunami's first impressions.  On paper, it looks to me that its costs balances its benefit.

Manchu said:

Having yet to play the game myself, all of this is speculation.  I'd be willing to play it either way, but I'd like an official rulling or FAQ to kill the ambiguity.

-DavicusPrime

I'm not really persuaded that there is ambiguity.  Like I said, the reference to "at the start of the Combat Phase" doesn't leave room for resolution order.  But sure, it'd be good to have an official ruling.

So that's the rules analysis but let's move on to the policy analysis:  how would allowing Swarm Tactics chaining change the game?  Imagine three starfighters clumped together at 1' intervals.  Isn't it true that they're giving up tactical coverage (and maneuvering room to some extent) for higher priority shooting?

 I don't think those who haven't played (like myself) can really answer this. So let's say you're chaining Biggs, Luke, and Wedge. You have to consider not only the chaining itself, but how it combos with these particular pilots. These 3 already have an amazing defense, especially if Biggs has R2-D2. Biggs' ability pretty much negates the problem that all your fighters are clustered so all will be shot at because Biggs is going to take the heat first. In order to keep your ships together, they'll all probably maneuver to attack the same enemy. So if you have 3 X-wings with pilot skill of 9 attacking a TIE, I'm betting that TIE is toast. However, you'll basically be destroying one TIE each round. My guess is that this squad may have trouble taking on a swarm squad of TIEs because Biggs is getting pelted each round and may not even survive the first onslaught. Against a squad of TIE Advanced fighters, I could see the chaining ability being pretty powerful and allowing the Rebels to take out the Imps pretty quickly.

So basically chaining Swarm Tactics would assure the X-Wings a kill per turn while BIggs acts as a kind of insurance policy against whatever TIE the X-Wing flight isn't stalking that turn?  So let's go back to the unchained example, with Wedge using Swarm Tactics on Biggs.  In that case, we have the same strong combo of high priority shooting and Biggs's cover, just down one attack.  Is the loss of Luke's attack at PS9 a big loss considering he's now free to fly wherever?  I'm thinking the Wdge + Biggs formation would draw a chase as it stalked TIEs.  Considering that those high priority attacks will do the most against a TIE Fighter, let's imagine Wedge + Biggs stalking a TIE Fighter with a TIE Advanced on their tails.  Is Luke worth more shooting at the TIE Fighter with Wedge + Biggs or chasing down the TIE Advanced that's going to kill Biggs?

As I said before, I can see it going either way.  And I don't really care which way the ruling goes.  I would just like a ruling.  My friends and I plan on getting into this game and running some local tournaments.  And we would like to learn the game using the correct rules.  This is my first time in the FFG forums, so I'm unfamiliar with the way FFG handles rulings.  Is it something that normally is dealt with here in the forums before an FAQ comes out, or do we just have to wait for an FAQ?

Secondly, I like how this thread is progressing into a strategic discussion.  If the chaining is legal and if the rebel player has initiative, I like this combination vs other squads of equal size.  Obviously you would want to keep them in formation and choose one target.  With initiative, all three ships would get to attack before any opponents ships.  If you can manage to take out Vader before he gets to attack, that could turn the tide of the game in your favor very quickly.  However vs a TIE swarm squad it would be a little harder.  I'm not sure Biggs would survive long against that many TIEs attacking him.

Roy

drkjedi35 said:

Typically, FFG staff do not answer via the forums. However, you are welcome to submit a rules question through the link at the very bottom of the page. They will usually reply to that message and you can then post the answer on the forum for the rest of the community to see. That will happen before a FAQ is released. In my experience, FFG tends to be a little slow with releasing FAQs.

drkjedi35 said:

The problem with that scenario is that by putting that much at risk you really need a reliable return.  That's why I think a chained flight would need to stalk a TIE Fighter -- making sure to get that kill will balance the odds given that you're presenting a clumped target to what may be a more maneuverable enemy.  Let me break out what I mean by clumped:  (1) fighters flying tight are more likely to bounce into things and (2) fighters that need to fly tight to benefit from a mechanic will move more predictably and likely take stress to quickly get the prey back into their sights.  On the other hand, you could say that taking a big risk needs to have a big payoff.  If you lost shields on Biggs or Biggs altogether but took out Vader, I think that would be pretty acceptable.  I think the major strength of Vader is that no one shoots before him.  That may be the key to this analysis.  

Budgernaut said:

Thanks!  I didn't see that link down there.  I just submitted the question.  When the answer comes back, I'll let you guys know.

Roy

Below is the response I got.

Hello, Roy,

You can indeed chain the effect of multiple Swarm Tactics (ST). This is because you resolve your abilities sharing the same timing in any order you choose. Thus, Wedge can use his ST on Luke, then Luke can use his ST on Biggs. As a result, all three ships have a pilot skill of 9 until the end of the Combat phase.

Thanks for playing!

James Kniffen
Associate Game Designer
Fantasy Flight Games

I'm glad that this combination works.  I'll try it out once I have three X-wings and let you know how it goes.

Roy

That's the other way round to how I interpret the action (with Wedge giving Luke PS9 and Luke giving Biggs PS8).

I am not complaining.

That's really impressive that Mr. Kniffen got back to you so quickly.  More evidence (in addition to Team Covenant's interview video) that he's a quality guy -- which is great for all of us X-Wing fans since he'll be handling expansions IIRC!

Regarding his answer, I'll be scouring the rest of the rules for similar situations once my stuff finally arrives.  That idea of resolving simultaneously timed abilities in any order the controlling player chooses is bound to come up in other places -- just hopefully not where more than one player is involved (whose choice then?).

Also, now we know we're discussing the right topic tactics-wise by considering whether a three-fighter formation is worth more in a 100-point game than a two-fighter formation with the third flight member either serving as bait or providing cover.  That three-fighter formation is going to be much tougher to keep together.  In that case, maybe chaining will be more of a "hey, my starfighters happen to be close together" moment than something you count on while writing a list.