blkdymnd said:

As to Red Devils, how many did you field?  Also, I think the math favors Tank Busters or Tank Busters + Ozz over RD or RD + Action Jackson.

Math vs Armor 7 Heavy:

Tank Busters
3x 2/2 attacks at range 16.  Average 2 successes for 4 damage.  Heavy rolls 7 armor save dice, averaging 1-2 saves for net 2 damage.  Importantly the TBs roll all 4 dice on the vehicle damage table on page 44.

Importantly, Tank Busters have Jump, and can ignore intervening terrain & models on a move and enemy cannot react to move.

Red Devils
3x 1/2 attacks at range 12.  Average 1 success for 2 damage, no armor save. 

Action Jackson improves RD's firepower and survivability but I think the numbers still favor Tank Busters.

And do not forget that a skilled opponent should focus all his resources to destroy the any unit that can damage the Heavy.  In my experience, the best a single unit can hope for is one good attack before being decimated by opposing Snipers, Angela, Marcus+Gorillas, etc.

Shadow4ce said:

 Well the biggest thing Devils have over Busters is you can put Devils anywhere you need them.  I airdrop a full platoon usually, so 5 units with Action Jackson.  Normally have a Combat Platoon to back them up.

blkdymnd said:

I am quite drunk right now so I apologize if I offend anyone. If you actually bought 5 units of Red Devils, and played a  game with them; it really doesn't matter who won in the end, because the biggest winner is the FFG marketing department. 

slainex said:

I had 3 units beforehand from Tactics.  2 more was no biggie.

Dr.Cornelius said:

I wasn't forgetting it at all. Without that ability, I'd never bother using a mechanic, ever, unless as I stated, I literally had nothing left for that unit to do.  

The only effect you are suggesting that really makes me consider a mechanic necessary is the immobilized one, as a heavy which can't change it's facing is pretty worthless unless your opponent is an idiot.

Blind, while annoying, isn't a big deal if people are using at least 25% terrain, as it's rare you'll get a Sustained attack opportunity anyway. When blinded, I make lemonade from lemons, and take a shoot action in Command Phase and Unit Phase, unless I foresee having to do a move shoot to counter a threat, in which case I wouldn't have got a sustained attack anyway. 

Fire is a minor inconvenience for one turn (of your choosing), as the Walker can put it out itself, albeit at the cost of one action. Saturday, my daughter actually put off putting one out on her Ludwig for a turn to put the coup de grâce on the pounder which put her on fire. The same pounder had been put on fire by her the turn before. Her opponent used his command squad only action in the command phase to put out the Pounder's fire, allowing her to get her SturmPioneres up close without fear of retaliation and torched them. 

The odds of the main gun being taken out are nearly astronomical. First, your opponent has to roll at least 3 hits on the attack roll. Then, they have to roll exactly 3 hits on however many attack dice there were which rolled hits. Finally, they have to roll a hit on a single die. Those are odds where if it were to occur, I'd laugh, congratulate my opponent on their good fortune, and then have a hilarious story to tell about a very fun game. 

My argument still stands, the mechanic isn't broken. The medic removing suppression is more useful, IMO, and a better use of a command squads action. Plus, if you get lucky, you get not only one more wound back, but a weapon or two or three as well. 

blkdymnd said:

Air Drop is strong, but in my experience Jump is at least as useful over the course of a battle.  Take two heavy platoons and you can Air Drop two units of Tank Busters, one with Ozz and the other with Rhino (for shared Berserk re-rolls)

Well Axis players I don't know if this makes you feel any better but I have yet to lose a game of DW with my Axis and I don't even own a heavy.

The trick is either A. Isolating it or B. Ignoring it.

If your opponent wants to waste his command squad on repairing a super heavy every turn then that makes them a high priority for sniper teams and Angela, it only takes a turn or two to wipe out the whole command section thus making the super heavy ripe for secondary effects. 

Heavy Laser grenadiers sustaining fire on a heavy mech will quickly rack up damage as well your Zombies and Apes.  For the amount of points they spend on a heavy mech you can afford 4 Squads of Zombies plus Grenadier X if they take the howitzers.  1 turn of zombie punching can roll 10 dice per zombie squad (so 40 dice total if all 4 get into punching range) While I don't believe in the math of average rolling that should put a dent in the mech (Especially if you can get 1 squad + Gren X in the rear of the mech) 

In the end I am not going to say it's easy to play Non-heavy vs Heavy Platoons but if you utilize your tools correctly you can quickly render a heavy mech useless, and if they take the fireball pattern you are allowed to giggle as all it takes is one movement damaged result they cant repair (because you've sniped / zombied their command squad) and it's now a huge waste of points.

 - End of Line -

Dr.Cornelius said:

I have other examples.  Devils are just what I've been running lately.  Chef can cripple one a bit.  They are not the most mobile things in the world, it's not hard to outflank one with jump troops (if they want to waste points by hanging someone at the back of the walker, so be it).

slainex said:

They won when they picked up Paolo's IP and Andy Chambers for the Warfare rules.

@Shadow4ce

"The odds of the main gun being taken out are nearly astronomical. First, your opponent has to roll at least 3 hits on the attack roll. Then, they have to roll exactly 3 hits on however many attack dice there were which rolled hits. Finally, they have to roll a hit on a single die. Those are odds where if it were to occur, I'd laugh, congratulate my opponent on their good fortune, and then have a hilarious story to tell about a very fun game."

I managed this twice with a ludwig and apes (with markus) against my opponents fireball this weekend… really not that hard :)

mariettabrit said:

Go buy a lottery ticket, or mail me your dice!  

I'm especially shocked by the Ludwig one - Average hits on a sustained attack vs Vehicle 7 is just slightly above 3, (slightly below on a non-sustained attack action - meaning you'd have to roll fire for 3 rolls in a row), and your opponent either has no armor roll because he foolishly let your Ludwig get behind him, or he can't roll an Armor save to save his life. Odds of a save from the front on a fireball (8 dice) are just slightly under 3. Between possible cover and armor, a Ludwig will be hard pressed to get a chance to roll on the hit table at all, and the most dice you can roll on the table is 5, meaning you beat the odds 3 times in a row, even on a sustained attack. 

I've played or demo'd well over 50 games now and have yet to see an, "Attackers Choice" Weapon Damaged hit happen once. There have only been 3-4 weapons knocked out in all those games, and all were defending player choice (attacker rolled a blank on the single die to decide who picks). Also, keep in mind, you can only knock one weapon out on the same Walker, If you reroll a 3 on the table, you have to pick 1 or 2 instead. 

If you don't know by now, the Dust dice are notoriously easy to cheat with. If you see someone look at the dice in their palm just before rolling them, or pick up dice from the rolling surface and keep the dice in the same facing before rolling; then they may be cheating intentionally or unintentionally. The probability of getting attackers choice weapon destroyed on Ludwig vs Fireball is less than 3%. 

slainex said:

So by your logic I should never look at my dice… got it. And I should never pick up my dice …. okay. So I guess the only way to play this game is via divination. I will divine from the stars what my dice may or may not read. I see 5 hits! you may now divine your Armor rolls…….

Like seriously bro you have been nothing but inflammitory on these forums, you may leave now we don't need you here. Have a nice day :-D

Shadow4ce said:

Granted with the ludwig it was luck, I did get all 5 hits sustained and he blocked 4 with armour… but that still gave me 5 dice on the hit chart (he had no cover).