felkor said:

What do you mean your unit with unlimited range can sit over on that shelf and just shoot at whatever it wants?????????????

Major Mishap said:

...pretty ...straight ...forward.   

Ok, but what about if, either intentionally or by accident, the heavy walker has its second deployment move blocked? Take the example below:

The axis attacker deployed his first two tanks and now he wants to deploy his heavy walker, however, until those tanks move, it's impossible for the heavy walker to perform the 2nd move that will get it fully inside the board. What happens then? Can he park the heavy walker half-deployed, and wait for the next round to fully deploy? Is he prevented from deploying the heavy walker this round, and is allowed to do it next round? Is he prevented from using his heavy walker at all throughout this match?!

If it can't do the two move actions required to enter the battlefield, it couldn't enter the battlefield that turn.  The heavy would be forced to wait off the board until there was a place they could enter.  The rules state a unit's first action must be to enter the battlefield, so the heavy could not act until it could do so.

It would be a foolish player that set themselves up like that, as heavies need to be able to take as many shots as they can to make sure they earn their point cost back.

So you're saying the axis player would wait for the space to free up and only enter the table at a later round? So he could potentially hold off and only deploy the heavy walker at the last round. In certain scenarios this could be a very useful exploit, like one where you just have to keep from being wiped out.

Well, the heavy can't shoot or be shot at until fully deployed anyway, so makes no difference even if you could only half deploy.  And to deliberately prevent the heavy from deploying would be pretty much impossible anyway as you would need to somehow keep units stationary in position across the deployment zone, losing any sort of tactical maneuvring, allowing you force to be picked off piecemeal.  And if your oppo was cunning, by destroying a unit could force your heavy to deploy where he wants it.

Also, if I were to play somebody who used dubious rule lawying to win a game, I won't be playing him again.

Major Mishap said:

Amen

Loophole Master said:

There is a significant danger in that, because without rules allowing for delayed deployment, the heavy walker would have to be deployed on the first turn it was able to. 

That could mean the opposing player could free up a deployment area by concentrating fire on a unit that would allow the heavy to deploy but leave the heavy walker in very limiting terrain.

As well, delaying deployment of a heavy walker is giving a significant advantage to the opposing player.  Heavy walkers cost a lot, yet have no more attacks than a medium walker.  While their attacks are stronger, they are not overwhelmingly so.  They have to make up for the loss of other attacks from multiple cheaper units that could have taken their place, and they can't do that while off the table.

If you're playing a 500 point game, and give your opponent somewhere near a 100 point advantage on the table by leaving your heavy walker off the table, you're giving a significant advantage to your opponent until the heavy can actually deploy.

The only kind of scenario where the tactic would give a percieved advantage would be a limited turn scenario that required complete destruction. 

Leaving the heavy off the table would make it much easier for the opposing player to eliminate other forces, and then allow concentrated fire on the heavy walker when it finally showed up.  In exchange for that, the delayed heavy walker player not only has given their opponent a unit and activation superiority, but they have also reduced their number of available attacks significantly without increasing those available attacks very much when the heavy walker finally arrives.

If the scenario has no turn limit, the delayed heavy walker costs their player every turn until it arrives, and only marginally improves their lot when it does, because more remaining enemy forces means it has more enemies attacking it without as much support.

If the scenario has a turn limit, the delayed walker costs the player as before, and does not give the heavy walker as many attacks with which to make up for its higher cost once it finally arrives.  The player may have saved the points of the heavy walker, but at the cost of easier destruction of the rest of their force.

I don't see there being more than a false perception that the delay would help.

Add to those issues the issue that the opposing player could force deployment in the least advantageous position, and the other problems are exacerbated.

I'd be willing to play someone who tried to manipulate the rules to allow delayed deployment of their heaviest unit.  I'd even try to make sure not to laugh at them for being so foolish. 

My lack of interest in playing them again would stem not from a brilliant tactical play that skirts the edge of the rules, but rather a lack of interest in playing someone who tried to manipulate the rules to make up for a lack of tactical judgement.  I like my opponents tough.

Yeah, I agree that it's not a very bright idea to purposefully keep your heavy walker from entering the board. I'm more concerned about what if the above situation happened out of an honest mistake in organizing your deployment. I just don't think the heavy walker should be prevented from even starting to enter the board, going as far as he can, so next turn it can complete its deployment and join the game.

By following the spcifications of the rules, and only allowing units to take move actions until they are fully on the battlefield, making them wait precludes several other sticky situations.

While most heavy walkers entering from the edge of the table will not be able to fire the turn they first move onto the table, that's not a bad way of showing some of the maneuver problems of the big vehicles without causing too many problems.  Allowing them to partially enter, and then complete entering the next turn, gives the heavy a free space of uncontested movement where they are not able to be engaged, while allowing them to always fire on their first full turn of entry.

If you allow a partial entry, but retain the stipulation not allowing other actions, explain why the opposing player can't fire at the parts of the vehicle that are on the table.  If you instead allow other actions to be taken while only partially on the table, you could wind up with players placing a heavy walker in a corner with only one square worth of vehicle on the table for far worse issues.

There are already scenarios where regular units might not be able to move onto the table on the turn they should.  Think of scenario 4 from Operation Blue Thunder.  Without having holes blown through the wall in scenario 3, the attacker has a three space wide entry area between lines of impassable terrain.  Without Fast, Scout, or Move 2 units, they can move a maximum of eight units onto the table, but only if they flank with infantry.  With that, three units could only move on one space.

While that scenario at suggested force sizes shouldn't cause a problem, play it at 300 points, or a similar starting zone for a different scenario, and the attacker could easily wind up with units waiting for another turn to enter. 

By making the heavies wait until they can fully enter to start entering, you avoid other issues, and make them enter just as other units would for some scenarios.

Under "Entering the Battlefield" on page 12 of Cerberus, it says:

"Like any other unit, large vehicles must use a MOVE action to enter the battlefield.  Unitl they are completely on the battlefield, large vehicles cannot perform any actions other than the MOVE action, and cannot be targeted by an attack.  Because of their size, some large vehicles cannot fully enter the battlefield with a single move action.  These units must perform a second MOVE action to enter the battlefield."

By my interpretation, this seems to mean that the large unit may half-enter, and can "hang out" as long as it is blocked.  I understand that "doing nothing" is an action, but if the unit is doing a MOVE action, but has no legal moves, I still believe that it is using a MOVE action.

For rules balance, however, our group uses, "The large unit must move onto the board at the first opportunity, and cannot perform a FIRE action on the turn it enters."   The second part is to prevent players from half-moving their unit onto the board on the first turn, (thus making it invulnerable.) just so that they can MOVE and FIRE on the second turn with no risk to the unit from enemy fire on the first turn.

(Note the use of "our group".  In no way am I saying that this is how the rules state that this situation must be handled.  I'm just stating how our group handles this particular issue.)

What purpose does half-entering accomplish other than allowing an effective extra space of movement the turn they finish entering?

Considering that extra space of movement could be the difference between entering, and entering and moving out of line of sight with only the possibility of a reactive fire attack, I don't see a reason for it.  Scout Vehicle is negated if it can't be used on the first turn, but allowing a partial entry would be doing allmost as much, and doing it with immunity in the first space entered.

Waiting off the board when there is no available entry, and then fully entering when possible, causes the least disruption within the rest of the rules.  The rules are clear that only movement actions can be taken until the unit is fully on the board, so allowing the heavy to take a 'do nothing' action goes directly against that.

Wombattangofoxtrot said:

A unit is either in play or not in play. It is either deployed or undeployed. There is no explicit notion, anywhere in any rules version, that would lead me to think otherwise.

Think of it this way: If there really was a third state of deployment (semi-deployed, as many suggest in here) - how come there isn't even terminology for it in the rules or FAQ? One might assume that the logical answer is that there is no name for it because what does not exist does not need naming.

The intentions of the rules are not to create "the third deployment state": If it were, then it would be explicitly written. You know, that is also the point with rules - to be explicit. There is no such writing. If there is not, then why insist on believing that there is? And what makes anyone think there is when nothing of the sort is expressed even remotely as the game designers intentions?

While I have yet to paint my heavies, when I do get an opponent to play i'm going to try using the simple rule "if its on the board it can be shot at". I think this eliminates any doubt or rule bending options to come into play. Plus like all games you need a few house rules at times and that seems like a fair one to resolve a possible issue.

 Agreed, house rules can help fix a lot of unfun situations. Now knowing that the heavies have to use 2 move actions to enter the board it changes what I saw in play over the weekend. And likewise it gives that slow lumbering giant the logical disadvantage that it didn't just show up out of nowhere.