Stupid confused forum spirits...

See, this is why I don't bother trying to use the quote function. It will inevitably betray you!

It's hardly like a neon sign that tells you what you're looking at. It's a gut instinct that something is different or wrong, an inexplicable feeling that goes beyond observable facts. In essence, sometimes people just get hunches.

Why are people having such a hard time understanding this?

Psykers, daemon summoners and sorcerers are all different degrees of warp dabbler - they all will differ spiritually from baseline humanity. They're also innately freaky - I mean, they commune with the energies of the Warp.

As for Genestealers... well, aliens are already quite clearly something else. That inexplicable feeling of wrongness is likely to be overshadowed by the quite obvious feelings of wrongness that come from seeing, hearing and smelling it. Either that, or they'll produce that unsettling feeling of being watched or followed.

I get what you're saying, and I understand it's not an "Astartes alarm". My problem is that there's plenty of evidence of things, which should by all means have warp "feels" far more unusual than a space marine, going by in human society utterly unnoticed. Psykers are feared partially because they are just "one of us" until they start throwing warp lightning and get possessed by daemons. Yet if mankind was prone to trusting or acting upon it's instinctive "gut feel" of wrongness, psykers would be far more easy to discover. Same thing with insidious cults and cultists. Yet their entire reason for being so damn scary is because of how subtle and insidious they get. Once again, unlikely to happen if the cultists all about seduction and subtly walked around giving off any sort of wrongness vibe beyond their own possibly creepy demeanor.

As for the Genestealers, I was referring to the late generation hybrids, though I could have been more clear. These, in particular, are all about infiltrating human society and rising to the social and political top. Psychically creepy guys don't win elections. And yes, that was just for funny soundbite. I'm fully aware anyone espousing democracy is nothing short of Tzeentchian cultist in, at best, denial.

At which point, the Space Marine has drawn attention to himself. If you're trying to infiltrate somewhere, drawing attention to yourself is the exact opposite of what you want to do, particularly if you're distinctive or otherwise memorable.

And I never claimed that they'd be immediately recognised as Astartes.

Could people stop arguing against an imagined extreme, please?

Well, in my book there's a pretty big area between "attracting bypasser attention" and "attracting adeptus arbites attention", even without them being recognized as Astartes.

Yes, if you're trying to sneak into the mansion of a heavily guarded governor, standing out at all is a problem. However, my situation has always been the streets of the average hive. And yes, on those he'll stand out, but he won't be immediately noticed as a threat to the planet, an infiltrator or anything that'll have the local populace running to the friendly local shock maul and shield squad. He'll simply be noticed as yet another of the countless men and women of the world who turn to cybernetics to make them exceedingly better at hurting people. Someone to avoid, not report.

Infiltration for a space marine will never be going around completely unnoticed. It will be about going around unnoticed enough that your face, fifteen frightened eyewitness reports and your current location doesn't end up on the desk of the local Judge the minute you step foot outside a door. In essence, having a few people reason there's a new scary thug in town is not a problem. Having the planetary governor wondering why there's a space marine without arming living in a hovel in the underhive is.

Or, to put it entirely in game terms: will a space marine PC on an infiltration mission either have to sit it out, spend the entire game hiding in a hole doing nothing or walk outside and immediately turn the infiltration game into a non-stop planetary slug fest? To me, the answer is no. An infiltration game is viable even with a space marine PC on the team, without basically benching them for the evening. And that, I feel, is the actual point of this debate!

Reverend mort said:

I'm not claiming that it's 100% reliable - or, more accurately, that the minds behind them aren't 100% reliable. People misinterpret or ignore things all the time - as internet forums demonstrate. People are unreliable.

But something being unreliable doesn't mean it isn't a factor.

Unknown said:

That does depend on how you view most cults - IMO, the bulk of a cult's membership will be largely unaware of, or untouched by, the secret at the cult's heart. This also makes it particularly difficult to root out, because knowledge of the cult's nature is strictly limited and thus not easily uncovered.

Unknown said:

Traditionally, however, genestealers have some form of mesmeric capability. I see no reason why some flicker of that power wouldn't be present in hybrids, if only to facilitate infiltration.

Unknown said:

Given that you have to commit a crime against Imperial Law to attract the Adeptus Arbites, they're generally unlikely to turn up anyway.

Unknown said:

I think you view Hive Cities differently. Sure, the underhive depths and the more lawless regions surrounding those depths, are filled with violent scum of all kinds... but most of a HIve City is going to be offices, manufactorums, hab complexes, places of worship and so forth, filled with law-abiding citizens living mundane lives of mundane labour, where wandering augmetic-riddled mercenaries aren't a common sight.

Unknown said:

I think you underestimate the capability of a sufficiently-motivated Space Marine to avoid attention through stealth (it's not like they're incapable of it, particularly if they're willing to shed their armour - and I don't take the concept of  "the artwork doesn't show it, so it doesn't happen" as valid, given that the artwork is meant to depict iconic imagery more than the full range of possibilities), or have at ignored the possibility in order to try and push the "blend in with the locals" angle. A big part of the Compacts structure is having secondary objectives that allow different characters to play to their strengths, which means that different characters should be at the forefront for different things, and take a step back during others.

And frankly, I really like the concept of a Chaos Marine armoured only in a bodyglove and a cloak, carrying only his combat blade, stalking through the shadows of a city, ready to pounce at a moment's notice.

I also think you've overestimated how much a Black Crusade game needs to focus on lurking in the depths of a Hive World like an evil version of a Dark Heresy group. If you're running a game where infiltrating Imperial society is such a major element, then there are obviously going to be character concepts that don't fit. Hell, after a while, the human characters may struggle to disguise themselves due to mutations (honestly, my group wouldn't stand a chance trying to infiltrate the Imperium - and the human characters are the far more noticeable ones).

H.B.M.C. said:

At some point you guys are going to have to accept that a lot of people think the idea of really big Space Marines is deeply cool.

AluminiumWolf said:

However, many also find it to be deeply silly, so it's a wash.

Ghaundan said:

Not finished the book, but it seems a heck of a lot more substantial than most adventures they have produced. The book is fairly dense with text. It looks to have a lot of work put into it, and so far I have not come across any glaring errors (and the page references actually go the right page, unlike many of the previous products). It looks like it might be very good. However, this does seem to add weight to my personal feeling that FFG really doesn't feel much of a connection to Dark Heresy and have consequently been a bit more lacklustre with that series. Black Crusade is their baby, it having no link to anything that was previously planned, and a significantly overhaul to the core system, so it just feels they have more enthusiasm for this series (resulting in the, at least at first glance, better quality product).

Space Marines are  7 foot tall. Ever since there has been a confirmed height for them that has been the measurment, and I have yet to see anything that has contradicted that. Yes there are 7 foot tall people around (though they are rare), but they are largely quite slim. A Space Marine, on the other hand, is going to be massively built, and that extra bulk (plus the extra bulk of the armour) will make them seem even bigger than their actual height suggests). Also, remember that many of the Imperium's citizens are going to be slightly malnourished, resulting in a shorter norm than today. Add the mythos and propaganda surrounding them (and the almighty mess they create when they are at work) and they could easily seem like Angels of Death.

borithan said:

This is 110% true, no matter how much either side wants to deny it now, a decade or so later. :)

I have to say I notice they seem to have got into a bit of a knot about not having money to keep track of. OK, it made sense to get rid of money  in Rogue Trader, Deathwatch and Ascension, as the quantities would be vast and/or money would be a non-issue, but it seems to have got them in a slight bind in this adventure. Ok, I accept that higher level characters are meant to be on the same kind of power scale as a Rogue Trader or whatever, ie where money matters a whole lot less than the influence you wield, but early on you are much closer to a Dark Heresy team in terms place in the world. You are a nobody and so money matters. Ok, I accept that in their setting at least an element of bartering makes sense, as it is unlikely there is going to be a widely accepted currency, but small scale transactions will matter.

For example, early in the adventure there are various times when the PCs are meant to try and aquire an item or service. Now, it could have been resolved as an Infamy check, but it isn't done that way, and for very good reasons. 1) It misses out a big opportunity for roleplaying and 2) if they fail the roll, then what? So instead the suggested method is essentially bartering items of certain availabilities. This is ok, but it does feel a bit of a work around (especially as every exchange is done this way), trying to overcome the lack of a money system. If things had set values (and PCs had money) then it just seems that section would have been much easier to write. Not even that they would necessarily just hand cash over (betting with weird "things" fits the setting well), but you would have a better idea of the relative worth.

Ok, I have just found my second typo, and unlike the first (which was "make" instead of "may", but it was clear from the context) it does confuse things slightly. On the rewards section for the first part (p.44) it says "This Experience is above and beyond what players might normally earn according to In addition...). Obviously there was meant to be another phrase in there, before the next sentence started with "In addition". From the context I am guessing the rewards are meant to be on top of the normal rewards for play time (400xp a session was it?).