Adept Orcadius said:

They did do this. But not because the Sisters were impure. They did it because the WERE pure, and their blood was armor against the Bloodtide or somesuch.

Firstly, let us put some things into place.

One would definitely have to remember that the Chaos Legions are by no means Chaos itself. The ruinous powers are a sum of the collective feelings of all sentient races, and they do not devote a large portion of their attention to the Imperium. The war they are fighting is the so-called Great Game, symbolically depicted by infinite clashes of demonic armies in the improbable fortresses of the daemon worlds within the warp. It is mainly a dialectic battle, a war for the prevalence of a certain feeling within the minds of the sentient entities in the galaxy (those connected to the warp, at least). After all, if there's something the Great Crusade ought to have taught to the unenlightened Imperials, it is that he who sows bloodlust and extermination shall harvest violence to a degree greater than he expected (ergo horus' apostasy). The enlightened have learned this truth form Khorne.

 

So, let's get to the matter at hand.

The above comes to signify two things: that destroying the Imperium is mainly an agenda of the Chaos Legions, not the Chaos Gods (they wouldn't mind, but it's definitely not their purpose), and that Abaddon is quite a small fry in the grand scheme of things (and the Dark Gods care only for the grand scheme). If he were to die, his place in the Black Legion would probably be filled by Aximand, or someone else who would be able to wield that power.  As for the Black Crusades, let us remember that there are still six Deamon Primarchs in the warp, and countless Greater Demons etc, who could easily call a Black Crusade.

 

For further regarding Chaos in the WH universe, I would strongly recommend the Liber Chaotica series.

 

PS. Matt Ward's GK stuff is indeed sub-par, cheesy and repulsive. As is the rest of his work.

 

 

I think a lot of people i this thread are underestimating the importance and unique position Abaddon holds. There's a reason he is the only on, ONLY ONE, in 10,000 years to mount, not one, but 13 black crusades. No one else has ever come close to assembling a force like he has. All this has been achieved by his unquestionable force of will, charisma and the power to back up his promises... and threats.

I'm not an Abaddon fanboy by any stretch, but claiming that someone else would just swoop in and take his place is wishful thinking. There's absolutely nothing in the established background that anyone else is even remotely capable of doing such a thing.

 

It also irks me to read that he has failed 13 times and that he should either be a spawn or killed because of it.  He hasn't failed 13 times. He's succeeded. TNone of the 13 crusades had the destruction of the Imperium as it's primary objective, but each has hurt the Imperium in a way that has paved a way for the next crusade, and every time he gets one step closer to the final prize, Terra.

The only reason gw hasn't launched the 14th black crusade is because it sounds stupid. the 13th sounds cool.

 

Jackal_Strain said:

Yes... and no. While Abaddon is certainly a badass (with painfully silly hair) the truth is that, in the eyes of the chaos gods, nobody is unique. And if Abaddon snuffs it, I doubt his current crusade will merely pout and disband. No, there will be huge infighting as a bunch of big wigs all compete for the glory of taking charge, one will crawl atop the heap of dead enemies and eventually all other contenders will realize their chances are too small and back down. The Crusade will continue, in whatever direction the new leader sees fit.

And, most likely, sooner or later someone will go "Abaddon wasn't that hardcore, he had the silliest hair of all time!" go and do a shitload of epic quests, earn their own Unique Mark of Chaos, show it off to all their friends, punch all their enemies in the balls, kick whoever won off the giant corpse pile, declare themselves the Chosen Champion of Chaos and throw Crusades all over the place. This person will most likely be a PC.

Also, while Abaddon has lead a bunch of crusades, the truth is that he not the be all end all of Chaos champions. The fact that he doesn't rock horns, scaly skin and his own personal Daemonic Fiefdom as a Daemon Prince is proof enough of that.

However, there is one thing nobody has mentioned. If Abaddon dies, Perry, minor chaos god of bad hair, dies with him. In fact, with his passing, all other hair will become slightly better by the mere absence of Abaddon's incredibly uncool hair pike and the chaos god it personally sustains.

Indeed, Abaddon has proved to be quite the leader, although he doesn't seem that charismatic in the HH books. He is devoted, though, and has had many successes.

Regardless of that, he cannot be compared to any one of the Primarchs, and they are but some out of many possible wielders of his power (let's not forget apothecary Fabius' Horus-cloning project. Who knows what the next one will be). There is no power gap in the warp, and Abaddon's loss definitely wouldn't create one. Whenever one falls, another one with the skill and ambition will take his place. Such is the way of Chaos.

Reverend mort said:

So it was said, but this is sadly not to be. Perry will forever cherish his place in the Warp, for his greatest apostle lies within it, forever fighting and preaching the glory of bad hair.

He was the one featured in the poster that young Abaddon hung on the wall one day in Cthonia, pledging to emulate the great man in all his unkempt biking glory.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

JAGHATAI KHAN

You are right. Abaddon is nothing like the Primarchs. He is in many ways their superior. He actually leads black crusadesa gainst the Imperium, instead of pouting on his own personal daemon world. The only daemon primarch that has been described as actually bothering to get off his lazy ass and do something is Angron, and he usually gets it handed to him in a spectacular fashion.

Abaddon doesn't sport mutations and hasn't ascended to daemonhood, because he has denied it several times. Abaddon could be a daemon prince multiple times over, but (this is my personal speculation) he has probably taken a look at the primarchs and seen what that leads to. It's counterproductive to actually getting things done.

I personaly don't believe that someone will take hus position if he dies. I think what happened to the legions after Horus fell will also happen to Abaddons forces. they will scatter and fight amongst themselves.

Abaddon is a plot device and a rather bad one at that, but I like how he sorta represents the last hope for the traitor legions for achieving their revenge.

We shall all mourn Perry.

Jackal_Strain said:

That analogy is like saying Commissar Yarrick is better than Vulcan because he actually fights something. Or Sly Marbo is better than the Emperor because he's still active in the world. Unfortunately, not quite right. The real reason the Daemon Princes sit on their ass is the same reason all the surviving Loyalist Primarchs are either in Stasis or off "repenting" somewhere unknown and far away: because having such immensely powerful entities running around would be too much of a hassle. They would either dominate the fluff or do nothing of what they could, and tabletop would become like that one edition of Fantasy Battles where it was all about the Heroes. Only this time it would be worse and on drugs.

Plus, that would require stating up new models, and I think GW might be opposed to that kind of work on pure principle. Sometimes it almost seems they oppose any effort on their part that isn't just feeding Matt Ward whatever it is he runs on. Personal guess, he consumes Jolt Cola and babies and shits out the same thing we all do, only he does it pre-wiped and ready to print.

@Somnium. Ye Gods! Not the hair, it's just that whenever I've seen that picture before, I've just figured he's wearing a helmet. But now I realize that black shadowy part I figured was the mouth section is actually his mustache!

@Mort:

It's not quite that simple imo. It has been stated in various official sources that the Daemon Primarchs have given up on the long war. Perturabo is a paranoid maniac that spends eternity fortifying against his enemies (storm of iron, or was it the ultramarine novel where they end up on Medrengard). Magnus and Lorgar spend all their time pondering and musing over the mysteries of the warp (Soul Hunter). The only Daemon Primarch that has done anything is Angron, and Gw did make rules for him. He is pretty powerful on the tabletop, but there are nastier creatures (Daemon lords from FW f.ex).

Your example comparing Marbo witht he emperor doesn't match Abaddon vs the primarchs at all. Like you said, Marbo is alive and the emperor is... well something else. Both Abaddon and the primarchs have the opportunity to do something, but only Abaddon actually take that opportunity. And personal power level is a bad way to judge how important a character is to the setting. Nobody believes Usarkar E. Creed stands a chance against Captain something of the generic boringness space marine chapter in combat, but the impact Creed has on the setting is quite formidable.

Abaddon is the greates chaos commander since the heresy, and replacing him will not be as easy as some people in this thread seems to think. The established background is pretty clear on this.

@Jackal: I tend to take anything Black Library books say with seas worth of salt, since their record on being coherent and consistent with anything is spotty at best. Hell, as is often repeated, GW considers them pseudo-cannon, aka cop-out :D

Likewise, the idea that Magnus will do nothing is at odds with his stated goal of "Seeing the Galaxy burn". So, yeah, the only reason he hasn't come down from his tower is because GW doesn't want him to.

Then there's Doombreed, the older than Horus and more powerful than the Primarchs Daemon Prince (yay Lexicanum!) who wiped out two entire chapters in a single Crusade.

If you accept Imperial Armor books, there's Uraka Az'baramael, another ancient Daemon Prince with a known interest in being an active and raiding daemon douche.

And that's just Daemon Princes listed on Lexicanum. That's not even accounting for the inevitable murder attempts on Abaddon by any Ascended PC! Or non-ascended PC's doing what PC's do best, which is break the setting in half and use it as a surfboard.

So yeah, I stand by my point that while Abaddon dying will have consequences, what he has started has far too much inertia and momentum to end with him. Especially since I've never seen his Crusades portrayed as being built around the "Cult of Personality" leadership method, instead being more along the lines of "Hey guys, I'm hardcore enough to weather any attempts on my life by would-be usurpers! This makes me Leader, let's organize and go do what we all want to do!".

So let me see if I get this straight? You discredit sources that is listed as official (black library) because you think they contradict other fluff sources, but give credit to an unofficial wiki-esque page?

Black library isn't any better or worse than other sources of fluff when it comes to contradictions or discrepancies in regard to the established background of the game. It seems to me that you simply choose what is considered official based on what you've personally read or not?

And I was talking about Daemon Primarchs, not just Daemon Princes. I'm fully aware of Doombreed and what he has done, but compared to Abaddon it's still not much.

No, I tend to discredit it for two reasons.

1) Black library books have a history of horrendous errors. Like C.S Goto, whom i recall had a D-cannon that fired bullets, Terminators performing backflips and of course the infamous Multilasers on everything issue.

2) To quote George Mann:

" In further conversation, George emphasized that Black Library’s main objective was to 'tell good stories'. He agreed that some points in certain novels could, perhaps, have benefited from the editor’s red pen (a certain multilaser was mentioned) but was at pains to explain that, just as each hobbyist tends to interpret the background and facts of the Warhammer and 40K worlds differently, so does each author. In essence, each author represents an “alternative” version of the respective worlds. After pressing him further, he explained that only the Studio material (rulebooks, codexes, army books and suchlike) was canonical in that it HAD to be adhered-to in the plots and background of the novels. There was no obligation on authors to adhere to facts and events as spelled out in Black Library work."

Official it ain't!

Basically, the authorative and narrative control GW wields over BL books is small, and the freedoms the writers take often quite large. Ergo, a rather dubious source.

As for the wiki, I don't give credit to it. I give credit to the sources it cited, none of which were BL books, but Codexes and Imperial Armor books. I was mentioning the wiki since a quick use of it highlighted the above sources and information.

What I've personally read is completely irrelevant, and have no real bearing on what I consider cannon or not.

And sure, Doombreed's various exploits are not as widely listed as Abaddon. Could that perhaps be because Abaddon is the narrative focal point of Chaos, while Doombreed is not? The question is not if Doombreed or anyone else has displayed the sometimes sickeningly high levels of Sueish competence Abaddon displays, but whether or not they have the Infamy needed to be a contender for his throne, the personal power to defend said throne and the leadership to lead his forces.

And I think there's quite a few entities, daemonic or otherwise, who have what it takes to fill his shoes.

To quote Marc Gascoigne:

Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40k universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.

Marc Gascoigne
Publisher, The Black Library and Black Flame

So... yea, you can selectively quote people to prove your point - so can we.

Everything with GW and the 40k logo on it was authorised by GW, and was put past the same Intellectual Property guys, which means they authorised it, which makes it GW official, which makes it canon.

That's how GW setting canon works - everything is canon, not everything is true.

Fair 'nuff a point. Of course you still haven't responded to the heart of my argument, which is that Black Library books have a rather spotty history with being consistent with any other work. Not to mention the often blatant contradictions with established canon. Like D-cannons not shooting bullets.

There is also, of course, the fact that your quote is a wonderful lil' version of "Nothing is true, everything is permitted." If every published material, from codexes to black library books are to be treated as half-truths, rumors and legends, nothing is a credible source.

In which case I could easily argue that Abaddon has done nothing, doesn't even exist, is an Imperial myth, is Horus in disguise, is the Emperor in disguise, is a Daemon, is Tzeentch, is the Changeling or is a giant walking pile of mashmellow fluff. While I have no source, you yourself quote admittance that all your sources are compromised and utterly unreliable and quite possibly not true.

Basically, it torpedoes any legitimate discussion of 40k lore, because there is no lore, only legend.

Though on the upside, I can now bring Narrative Focus in as an in-setting argument for Abaddon being nothing special. It's all just PR. From him to bloat his own legend, and from the Imperium to create an easily vilified figure head for the enemy to rally the people against. The only reason he stays in the limelight now is inertia.

Besides, nobody with hair that silly could ever succeed at any aspect of life. Not even my withered, cynical heart is willing to admit such a thing is possible, not even in the crapsack grimdark world of 40k.

Reverend mort said:

 

Yeah, well, if Goto wrote all kinds of crap, so did Matt Ward in the codexes (I'm disregarding about all that was in the last 5th edition codexes as blatant bullshit: as it stands, between Supreme Absolute Grand Total Master Whateveritsname of the Grey Knights and "I'm the king of the galaxy and everyone's my bitch" Mephiston, it's a wonder the Imperium still has enemies).

Anyway, it's still your choice to believe what you want or not in your game. I know that in my games, the Alpha Legion is split between "Loyalists" and those that have truly fallen to Chaos, Eisenhorn is still at large and alive somewhere (at least until Abnett writes Ravenor vs Eisenhorn), that Abaddon is not a failure, but has anger management issues, that Khorne is not the fuckwit God he has been ever since they revamped him, that Mephiston is a powerful psyker that has vanquished the Black Rage but that half of the stories are just that: stories (ie he did not vanquish the equivalent of half a Hive fleet by himself), etc.

So yeah, I kinda "agree" with you, there is no lore but that which you decide for yourself is true. In my case, it won't ever include anything written by any of the two aforementionned idiots. Some bits of Rogue Trader (the first book, not the RPG) are good, others are not. You just take your pick and roll with it. Let's just say I never feel the need to head up to 4chan to impose my views on a fictional world with 12 years old.

And I could make the argument that inertia is actually a pretty important theme in 40k, with the Imperium being a metaphor for its ruler (or is it the opposite?): a rotting, still corpse trying to stave off its own destruction. Whatever people do, in the grand scheme of things, it rarely changes anything. Abaddon is quite impressive in that he actually periodically makes a dent in the Imperium, however small it may be, and while some other warlords may be as competent as he is, Daemon princes and lords, even old primarchs, are not interested by the affairs of the mortals, by and large, their preceptions too distorted by the influence of their masters to even give a shit. So I find Magnus locking himself up in shame, disgust or anguish for a period of time that makes no sense in the physical world, for example, does not matter: it's entirely in keeping with the spirit, and thus I do not care or even feel the need to give an explanation.