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Black Crusade
Wealth, power, and happiness await. The only price is your humanity.
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Who would be elevated to Daemon Prince status?
Published on 05 May 2011 - 00:58:23
Page 2 of 3 (35 messages) « First page... 1 2 3 ...Last page »
Reply #16 | Published on 07 May 2011 - 17:44:32

Nurgle - Whoever thought of the idea of the diseased blankets to wipe out indian colonies.

Slaanesh - Marquis de Saad as was mentioned earlier, and any number of artists/musicians noted through history to have been thought to "sell their soul" for their talent (like Elvis... and justin bieber I suppose is evil and androgynis enough for a slaaneshi cultist)

Tzeentch - Alexander the Great, Napoleon, Lincoln, and the chick who started the women's right movement, as these were agents for massive, worldwide change.

Khorne - Vlad the Impaler, Ghadafi, Sadam Hussein and any number of other world leaders who have executed mass numbers of people in a violent orgy of blood and death.

The Emperor - Hitler, the Popes who started the Crusades, Bush (Please remember, chaos is not about Evil vs Good, it is about Law vs Chaos, Hitler was extremely lawful, and you could, by setting, swap "jews/blacks/gypsies with the concept of mutants/xenos/heretics). 

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Reply #17 | Published on 08 May 2011 - 08:29:02
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Richard Coeur de Lion would fit for Khorne. Most of the time he's portrayed as a figure of chivalry, but he was in fact a brutal war criminal during the crusades.

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Reply #18 | Published on 08 May 2011 - 12:30:34

Voronesh said:

 

Genghis Khan might qualify for Khorne, yet for his time was he really that depraved/crude in his acts?

 

Chinggis Xan (The currently accepted Scholarly way to write the name... I'm in the field, and I hate it too!) was down right benevolent by standards of the times.  Didn't kill based on religion, almost all his wars were started by the -other- side when they killed messengers and/or seized caravans.  And their infamous siege slaughtering?  That was standard procedure in any siege, if you didn't surrender, then you risk death if you don't succeed.  And the veracity of a lot of those cities being wiped out completely is a bit iffy given that most of them have primary documents talking about how thriving they were less than a decade after the fact.  So it's likely there was some hyperbole in most cases. 

 

Don't get me wrong, the Mongols certainly saw themselves as superior to everyone else.  No doubt there!  But in the off chance the Great Xan was a Daemon prince, definitely Undivided, since he never would have promoted one religion over another.

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Reply #19 | Published on 08 May 2011 - 21:42:25

Gurkhal said:

 

I don't see why Sun Tzu wouldn't have been a Khornate. Seems very reasonable to me, as Khorne is the god of war - not just idiot berserkersr charging with axes against machine guns.  

 

 

Except he's not a god of War, he's a god of slaughter and bloodshed. And Sun Tzu doesn't really endorse massacring your enemies in any of his writings.

Which brings us to Hitler, who was absolutely insane, and only ran an orderly regime because the people around him helped keep things together. Appropriately enough, everyone was scheming against each other, that's why things fell apart at the end with Goering and Goebbels (or was it Himmler?) all trying to sieze control of the Third Reich, though they were hardly the only ones sizing up their colleagues for a knife in the back. Anyway, Hitler being the instigator of so much death would be a perfect candidate for either Khorne or Nurgle.

"Would you like to travel across entire sectors in months, rather than years? Would you like to blast people with warp energy? Would you like to have an extra eye? Come down to Fabius Bile's Gene Emporium, and become a New Man!"

-MILLANDSON

Reply #20 | Published on 09 May 2011 - 00:38:33
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Q: Except he's not a god of War, he's a god of slaughter and bloodshed. And Sun Tzu doesn't really endorse massacring your enemies in any of his writings.

 

I disagree. Khorne is very much the god of war. Possibly the god of rage but that's about it. Then again I take a broader view on Chaos so I think I can understand you objections, even if I think that they are wrong.

 

Q: Which brings us to Hitler, who was absolutely insane, and only ran an orderly regime because the people around him helped keep things together. Appropriately enough, everyone was scheming against each other, that's why things fell apart at the end with Goering and Goebbels (or was it Himmler?) all trying to sieze control of the Third Reich, though they were hardly the only ones sizing up their colleagues for a knife in the back. Anyway, Hitler being the instigator of so much death would be a perfect candidate for either Khorne or Nurgle.

 

Well Hitler's used of charismatic leadership and feudal anarchy was always due to his choice of method for leadership, and has always been a pretty interesting style. That's always a favorite for me when making a Prince for Vampire :D. But anyhow I would think that Hitler would be more into the Khornate camp than anything else.

Motto to life: Let the galaxy burn!

Number of Chapters I'm working on: ~60

Finished Chapters: Smoking Fists

Other projects: Feras (Xenos race)

Touched by the Alien (Dark Heresy Campaign)

Reply #21 | Published on 09 May 2011 - 01:52:38
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Gurkhal said:

Q: Except he's not a god of War, he's a god of slaughter and bloodshed. And Sun Tzu doesn't really endorse massacring your enemies in any of his writings.

 

I disagree. Khorne is very much the god of war. Possibly the god of rage but that's about it. Then again I take a broader view on Chaos so I think I can understand you objections, even if I think that they are wrong.

 

If you actually read "Art of War", you are told that war is something horrible, that brings a lot of suffering to the people, not only for the killing, but also for the work that is not being done and the rising prices of goods. Sun Tzu argues that a governour must prepare for war, because it is inevitable many times, but must work to avoid war to save his people for suffering. I think the book even has a chapter or two about avoiding war. Also, one of the objectives of a general when it must go to war is to minimize the impact of it, and the suffering of the people.

I have to agree with the B Pact that Sun Tzu rarely qualifies as a Khorne follower. There are other medieval european writers that do appraise the killing, and the pleasure of blood spill, that would make better examples, and that they aren't berzerks.

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Reply #22 | Published on 09 May 2011 - 03:29:51
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Lord Ork said:

 There are other medieval european writers that do appraise the killing, and the pleasure of blood spill, that would make better examples, and that they aren't berzerks.

Now you've got me interested. Mind to name a few? :)

Motto to life: Let the galaxy burn!

Number of Chapters I'm working on: ~60

Finished Chapters: Smoking Fists

Other projects: Feras (Xenos race)

Touched by the Alien (Dark Heresy Campaign)

Reply #23 | Published on 09 May 2011 - 03:39:41

 The best argument I could see for Hitler is by a closer analysis of Nazism - basically looking at it at an ideology that is heavily invested in struggle or conflict. That is an ida that Hitler spoke of from time to time - that life is about struggle, that it is inherently competitive, and that the strong are destined to triumph and the weak to be eliminated. I can see these ideas as being Khorney in many ways.

I think that anybody who brought about major changes in the way people think and live could be a candidate for daemon prince of Tzeentch - they don't necessarily have to be mass murderers or even evil really. I would say many Enlightenment Era philosophers might be seen as being servants of Tzeentch in how they changed to world. 

As for Daemon princes of Slaanesh, I think that it could include people who not only dedicated their lives to pleasure but those who encouraged similar attitudes among the populace. Guys like Hugh Hefner for example, or even Herbert Marcuse whose flavor of Marxism and writings helped to encourage the free love movement in the 1960's. John Wilmot, the inspiration for the movie The LIbertine might also be a good candidate. Aristippus of Cyrene would be a good candidate as well, he founded the hedonistic cyrenaics : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrenaics

Nurgle is harder. There were massive deaths introduced into the new world by European explorers, though most of that was accidental and the cases where diseases may have been deliberately introduced are hazy. Shiro Ishii, the head of Unit 731, experimented on thousands of people during WWII and Japanese biological warfare is estimated to have killed over 500,000 - making him a pretty good candidate for daemon prince of Nurgle : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

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Reply #24 | Published on 09 May 2011 - 03:41:29
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I would like, but I can't recall. I remember reading at my History book the writings of a noble describing the art of war, the pleasures of scream and blood. Like a sport. But I cannot recall the name of the author.

I can recommend you in exchange a much later (XIX, I think) poem of a Spanish writer (Espronceda) who seemed tired of european degeneration and felt attraction to the "savage" people. Quite like Nietzsche. Not to take it literally:

Hurrah! Cossacks of the desert, hurrah! Europe offers ye a splendid booty. Bloody pools may her battlefields become, and vultures on her army feast

www.sacred-texts.com/neu/basque/lbp/lbp13.htm

Milk for the Milk God!

Reply #25 | Published on 09 May 2011 - 11:18:21

 Some religious upstart like jesus could have become a Tzeentch Prince, A carefully laid plan that is still unfolding this day. He changed the world with christianity and this religion have in its time claimed a fair share of killed people, for one reason or another.

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Reply #26 | Published on 09 May 2011 - 13:49:32

Lord Ork said:

 

Gurkhal said:

 

Q: Except he's not a god of War, he's a god of slaughter and bloodshed. And Sun Tzu doesn't really endorse massacring your enemies in any of his writings.

 

I disagree. Khorne is very much the god of war. Possibly the god of rage but that's about it. Then again I take a broader view on Chaos so I think I can understand you objections, even if I think that they are wrong.

 

 

If you actually read "Art of War", you are told that war is something horrible, that brings a lot of suffering to the people, not only for the killing, but also for the work that is not being done and the rising prices of goods. Sun Tzu argues that a governour must prepare for war, because it is inevitable many times, but must work to avoid war to save his people for suffering. I think the book even has a chapter or two about avoiding war. Also, one of the objectives of a general when it must go to war is to minimize the impact of it, and the suffering of the people.

I have to agree with the B Pact that Sun Tzu rarely qualifies as a Khorne follower. There are other medieval european writers that do appraise the killing, and the pleasure of blood spill, that would make better examples, and that they aren't berzerks.

 

 

 

Bingo.  Seriously bingo.  Art of War was as much a philosophical exercise as anything else.  And the main point of it always was avoid war, and then if it absolutely must happen then only do so if you WILL win, and only choose the battles you would win.

And really, just because someone is good at war doesn't make them automatically Khornate - ALL the Primarchs were good at war, and of the traitors, only one went Khorne - and he arguably wasn't even that good, he was just savage.  A far better analog on the unlikely chance Sun Tsu was Daemon Prince material would be either Slaanesh (The ART of War, as it really was treated as an art) or possibly even more likely Tzeentch as lots of what it was based on was trickery and outthinking your opponent.  Frankly, I think the average Khornate would dislike the book because of that aspect alone.

 

 

"All warfare is based on deception."

I get the impression Khornate followers would not agree with that part - he flat out hates deception.  And there's a clear distinction to begin with that Khorne is NOT the god of War, he's the god of Violence and Bloodshed, but also has a sense of honor regarding the weak.  More importantly, he'd never agree with pretending to be weak, while that is an integral part of the Art of War.

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Reply #27 | Published on 16 May 2011 - 22:52:52
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Ok Sun Tzu may have been a bad example, but to say that he would be a Slaaneshi because he used the word "art" in the title to his books seems like an even weaker argument. I think that it also goes for saying that Khorne hates deception. He hates magic and psyhic powers, but I seriously doubt that the God of War would deny tactics or strategies. Sure, there's a stereotype of Khornate berserkers running knowingly to their deaths as part of their highest wish, but I personally think that the Blood Pact would be more appropriete to represent a Khornate mindset. There are surely Khornates who run knowingly to their deaths but I would think that's more to do with lack of training and tactics rather than any inherit Khornate mindset. I do not doubt that some Khornates would not like the books because it used deception, but I don't doubt that many others would find it very good and use it to good effect for the glory of the Blood God. 

 

To take a real life example: I think that Khorne might really like the Waffen SS, and I do not think that he would get pissed as hell on them for using camoflage uniforms or fire arms instead of close combat weapons. But that's just my view on the glory that is called Khorne. I understand that others differ.

 

 

 

 

Motto to life: Let the galaxy burn!

Number of Chapters I'm working on: ~60

Finished Chapters: Smoking Fists

Other projects: Feras (Xenos race)

Touched by the Alien (Dark Heresy Campaign)

Reply #28 | Published on 04 June 2011 - 15:56:01

In the fluff Khorne's first and  greatest Daemon Prince Doombreed, who is actually even more powerful than some of the daemon primarchs, achieved Apotheosis during the Middle Ages after slaughtering his way through Eurasia. A compelling arguement and some of the fluff suggests that he was actually Genghis Khan. He later fought the Emperor alongside Slanneshi Daemon Prince N'kari on the Vengeful Spirit.

Let the Galaxy burn. Let the heavens bleed.

Reply #29 | Published on 04 June 2011 - 16:47:32
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Stalin, killing 24 million people through purges, and another 24 million through the war, he would easily have gained the favor of Khorne for the time.

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Reply #30 | Published on 08 June 2011 - 06:22:10

SomVone said:

 

 Khorne is the God of war.

Berzerk close combat of but one of his facets.

 

 

Not quite the full truth. Berkerk gladitorial combat is his most preferred type. But beyond tanks and dreadnoughts, there are zero Khornate havocs to be found.

 

Many argue that guns is Khorne fair and square, its simply not true.

Khorne Berzerkers cant use Bolters/Meltas/Plasmaguns (ok not even flamers). His most preferred soldiers eschew guns of any type. His primarch was a gladiator, not a great tactical thinker.

 

Basically Khorne as a general impression, all encompassing (make every evil fit one of the 4 chaos gods) is the god of war.

In the universe of 40k, he is the god of bloodshed and slaughter. Tzeentch is actually better at war than Khorne, simply because an outmaneuvered enemy cant use any weapon at all, denying the khornater zerkers any and all advantages they might have.

Blood calls blood

Fury calls fury

For battle we rise

For death we fall

- Battlechant of the Nightblade Renegade Chapter

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