DB.Cooper said:

Don't even seen this card before this discussion :

52
Sons of Coin.
Empire Unit. 2 E. 2P, 2HP. Noble.
Kingdom only.
Forced : At the beginning of your turn, spend 1 resource or deal 1 damage to this section of your capital.

The new total aberration, the typical fast set up card I was talking about. Any "low cost" card giving power is potentialy a card that bring unbalanced things. Even more when those low cost cards give power equal or superior to their cost.

It's like a faction is geting "triple lands" while others are playing with "normal land".

Shindulus said:

Message from FFG is clear: play imperium or GTFO

I've always considered myself "in the middle". 

For some reasons you know from private conversations, I wasn't able to play that much and I still have some troubles.

The "american" style of play is a lot "thematic" and deep from a flavour point of view, pretty original, but sometimes not concrete. The "european" style of play is more boring and far from the setting, but more concrete. That's a general rule even in board-games.

Now: i like both stuff. 

One-Two years ago, Orc Skaven, some Verena-Dwarf and RBT decks were strong (some months after).

I liked EMPIRE since day one (even before, by previews). I was thrilled by elves, though.

I used to play Orc-Control when noone did (no reanimation, it wasn't possible at that time), did pretty good, but I played it mostly because it was mine.

I had a pretty strong empire deck: never played at a tournament. NEVER.

Now I'm testing HIGH elves, a "new" empire (hopefully without Rodrik some day soon) and Dark Elves. I like the theme and the strategies and I'm "happy" to lose if I did something by myself or at least following my "tastes". 

I really like "metagame-breakers" like your Dwarves or the like. 

So: I'm tired of Empire and I even started to ask for a "soft ban" for VTHC at that time, and now I'm doing the same encouraging our players to play other stuff...BUt here's the catch: there's a competitive-organized play, there's a league, there are regionals.

And TOP players enjoy the game when they win (i'm a bit competitive too, but not in the "usual" meaning). 

I do like competition, if it's balanced and if even a "middle-tier" deck can say it's thing.

I'm still convinced Empire is the top deck and so are our players: it wins regularly against any deck, and has its full chances even against your Dwarven deck with a bit of teching. 

So: when I speak, most of the time, I speak in the interests of the competitive side of the community, the once who fully understand the game and that plays just the BEST deck, not the one they like the most. 

I've used to play CoC LCG (I'm re-starting ahaha :)) and I'm a decent Agot player: I was never a top player (won a couple of little tournaments and reached a bunch of placements, but never played more than 4-5 tournaments in a season), but everyone could swear that in every new tournament I would have played a NEW deck, maybe crazy, maybe not that useful, but funny. :)

Next week I'll play a HE deck, probably. Not a single chance to get a single point...But it'll be fun. :)

That's what I like, that's what I SEE IN THESE BOARDS and that's what I like of american's playstyle. But that's not the point of the conversation.

The point is, with fine tuning and some playtesting, in T1 competitive play, this game has 1 serious decks and 2-3 conditional decks. That's it. :)

DB

jogo said:

BBSB12 said:

Maybe is something similar, but i can't believe this is exactly the winning deck, 'cause I can't see Beleaguered Scout, whitout this Unit a deck like this one could be easily crushed by any fair orc-bats Rush!!

If this is really the winning deck thsi fact confirms this deck is a great anti-empire deck but polish guys took really a great risk... they finally won a very dangerous bet!

Finally we came back :)

Highlander won by Dami (Poland - Wroclaw)

Championship won by Jaszczur (Poland - Wroclaw)

Runner up Mamut (Poland - Gdansk)

Driver not the car won by Bonq (Poland - Wroclaw)

Nations Cup won by Corrupt or Die! (Jaszczur, Przemo, Darker - Poland - Wroclaw)

I wont say a word in discussion about Empire.

In Poland, We can beat overpowered Empire with Dwarves, Chaos or Orcs, but this decks have also weak matchups. Empire is strong against every race and every deck. The best economy setup (Forge, Rodrik, Hunstman), game breaker (Verena), control (Grove, Elite, Rodrik, Verena) and finishers (Hemmler, Karl Frantz) allow to crush every opponent. FFG ban VtHC and give the Empire Osterknacht's Elite with Call for Reserve engine instead... and now things like Scion of the Coin - 2/2 unit for just 2 and 1 loyality... Warpstone, Village, Forge, Hunstman, Scion of the Coin and the Empire will always start with min 3 power on 1st turn... Other races can't do things like this... Empire gets 2/2 unit for 2E and HE 2/2 unit for 3HeHe - is that BALANCE?

and that is the MAIN PROBLEM with the Empire: the best setup and the best board control (develop, support, unit + total reset for the opponent with Verena)

DaRKeR said:

Are You sure about that Darker? Mamut have You moved to the Wroclaw or something?

Teokrata said:

I quote everything.
...is that balance?

ok so here are few words from me about Stahleck Invasion.

First of all, big congrats for Jaszczur! Actually his deck totally dominated this tournament. I was just a common driver with awsome Lamborghini :P There were few differences between our decks, but the mechanism was the same :-)

Why did I choose this deck? I knew that there will be Italy players with their Verena. And in my opinion RTF is a deck which has great chances to win almost every game with "Italian Verena deck" In top8 against Darkest (Heloooo ZABA! :P ) I got my quest zone cleaned, Still I won that match.

Why did the Italian Verena failed? Well for sure it's not because of players. I consider Italian player to be one of best in Europe. The point is that they're playing (as I was said) mirrors in big tournaments. It's the safest way to be competetive. I do believe that Verena has a serious problem only with RTF (but using Volkmar can totally own Reclaim deck), but then... this kind of Empire will lose with other empire on Karl Franz.

Italian players showed they have mastered mirror matchup, still 3 polish players playing Verena (only 1of us didnt make out to be in the top 16) managed to be in top 16. That's a great success. I think that Italian Verena deck is better than polish one in mirrors. And this time there were mostly this kind of game (I faced one He deck and later 8 empires in a row!)

Ofc Empire is over powered. The funny thing is that probably the new Empire unit wont be played. Why? Because Empire already has a awsome starts ;-) Restricting Derricksburg will help a lot and will make meta more funny. There will be a Zoo, but since it's Unique card wont be so good as Forge is right now.

Awesome analysis, but let me point something out: I wouldn't think about "failing". Our players still believe that empire is stronger than any other race.

And I believe it too. Can be stopped with an anti-meta deck, but the trick would last for a couple of tournaments and nothing more until he won't be nerfed.

Noone (aside rush) should start with 3 cards in this game, at least it's a luky start or a "basic" engine start, with no possibilities to gain insane advantage.

The zoo is definitely MAD. It's basically one more contested village.

Anyway, I find that the Teokrata and Mamut analysis are perfect and with mine and jogo's, it's a clear SOS message to designers. :)

I'm going to play High Elves in the near future, so no problem for me. I'll lose, but with long hair against the wind and an awesome body. ;)

DB.Cooper said:

THX for support. I belive that FFG will listen to our message when Polish and Italian players speak as once. I also have hope that WHI community will be stronger after this tournament. We want to play with WHI players from other countries. We want more big international events and will organize them in Poland ;-))) Tournaments in Poland looks like this - https://www.dropbox.com/gallery/10824829/1//Z%C5%82oto%20P%C3%B3%C5%82nocy?h=65b120&

results after 6 rounds.

1. Stuch Empire 14pkt Wloch
2. Jaszczur Dwarf 13pkt Polak
3. Gardine Empire 13pkt Niemiec
4. Darkast Empire 13pkt Kolumbijczyk mieszkajacy we Wloszech
5. Trouble Empire 12pkt Wloch
6. Kami Empire 11pkt Wloch
7. Fortep Empire 11pkt Polak
8. Budmeilka Empire 10pkt Francuz
9. Tufo Empire 10pkt Wloch
10. Eblis Empire 10pkt Wloch
11. Mad_Niko Empire 10pkt Wloch
12. Mamut Dwarf 10pkt Polak
13. Zaba Empire 10pkt Polak
14. Przemo Chaos 9pkt Polak
15. Darker Ork 9pkt Polak
16. Bonq Empire 9pkt Polak
17. Johnny Ork 9pkt Niemiec
18. Ivan Sanches Roig Dark Elves 9pkt
19. Vasconcelos Empire 9pkt
20. Dami Empire 8pkt
21. Rudi Empire 7pkt
22. Schmutzer Empire 7pkt Niemiec
23. Ron Chaos 7pkt
24. Bellamy Empire 6pkt
25. Barandas Chaos 6pkt
26. Axel Dark Elves 6pkt
27. Damas Ork 6pkt
28. Primus Magicus Empire 5pkt
29. Soto Dwarf 4pkt
30. Xela Ork 3pkt
31. Kris High Elves 3pkt
32. David Groergen High Elves 1pkt

18 Empire decks on 32 players, 7 Empires in top 8 after 6 rounds - NOT META DOMINATION?

Actual "set up cards" for empire :

1- Forge

2- Warpstone

3- Sion

4- Village

5- Zoo

A great potential of being able to have 3 loyalty turn 2 (so as to play an efficient zoo)

15 cards of the deck that all give "at least" 1 power for 1 ressources.

+ all 2 cost + 1 loyalty cards combinations.

It's just near to be impossible to get less than 2 power icons turn 1 for empire's deck, they often can get 3, they can even get more...

The probability to have the same "continuation" turn 2 is increased.

At end of turn 2 empire can afford on a + 6 to 8 power icon most of time. How can others faction enter in opposition of such opulence?

All those cards are just "set up cards" they have strictly the same usefullness that lands have in Magic.

The game do not confront the deck strategies, the game just confronts how a deck is able to get power icons faster and faster than an other one.

At least in magic the "power" increase is limited each turn in WH:I there are no limit and faction do not really get the same access to "power". What was at start a good point for WH:I just become something totaly wrong as it make the game unbalanced. Because FFG creates cards for the sole purpose to be "lands".

Hi all,

As I don't have a lot of time (and will propably write some report later this week)  I would just like to thank:

- Johnny for coordinating the whole tournament

- judges for their strong nerves

- my team for winning every tournament in Stahleck

- all the players - it was a great time for me, I had a chance and privilage to meet all of you and exchange experience, especially Itallian players with their great empire decks, hope to see you on other tournamnets in Poland or Italy

Lot of luck and well tested deck helped me win the tournament, but for me the biggest winner is our community. We all drank some serious amounts of beer,  gathered contact mails and I believe that this will be a great start to make our international community finally work in proper way - many european tournaments each year, not only Stahleck.

We will make an english sub-forum on our polish forum (www.whinvasion.pl) so we can inform about tournaments and share experience with foreign players.

BR,

Jakub "Jaszczur" Serafin