schmoo34 said:

true- though elladan and elrohir were always odd ones out, holding incredible grudges against orcs and were more ranger than noldr (in their actions at least)…..though i think if any noldor were to go it should be those two

as for the cement/sea, it was said that sauron would end up finding the ring…. no matter how long it took they  didnt want to risk it. seas can change, rocks can be weathered…remember the ring had a will of its own……

richsabre said:

richsabre said:

Tolkien lingered EVERYWHERE.  Frodo took over a year to even leave the shire.  Rivendell was many months as you mentioned, even King Theoden lingered as he rallied the Rohirrim to the cause of Gondor. 

The only thing missing was a giant lingering in the middle of the battle of Helm's Deep where Aragorn stopped to explain to Pippin and Merry the finer points of sword play and eating second breakfast before a good battle in between orc slayings.  Although, I insist the "Keeping count" of Gimli and Legolas came pretty darn close.

It is easy to identify the one single character in the book Tolkien most identifies with….Treebeard.  Because an ent works on ent time and there is no ent discussion that is hasty.

LOTR and the Hobbit don't jive, even though it is the same era.  There was an elven king in Mirkwood, talking trolls, talking spiders, everything was talking and much more interactive than in LOTR…but I'm digressing.

true true- theres a certain pace to tolkien that no other authors have….a pace ive seen stated as 'boring and bland' however i obviously wont agree with this, i can understand how some people will find the pace rather lacking (compared to modern standards that is)

rich

richsabre said:

I enjoyed the book(s), and at many times did find it dry but it was good enough to stick with and finish.  There were even quite a few comical moments…the one that made me laugh the most is when Merry is in the "Den of healing" in Gondor and awakens from the black death and is embarrassed because he left his backpack on the battlefield and Aragorn just ignores the comment and continues to treat him.  Then when Aragorn leaves, Pippin calls him an ass and points to the backpack lying on the table along with him.

Some of the battle details are rarely revealed.  Tolkien was more into discussing flanks and generals and captains and there were many, and it was interesting how the movies focused on just a few characters and made it very Braveheart-esque.

Tolkien also did a wonderful job with Smeagol/Gollum and the weight of the ring.  It was, by far, the best of his work in my mind.  I also thoroughly enjoyed how Tolkien handled Eowyn.  She was a much deeper character in the book.  Her anguish and agony regarding being left behind to be a maiden by Theoden and Aragorn and the deep hurt she carried as a result of it and Faramir's flirtations and daily walks to help her to recover and forget about it.  It was wonderfully done.

It's as if the movie just ignored the best parts and focused on the "ok" parts.  Two other things that make me slap my head is that Denethor had a palantir stone with him…and THAT Is why he went mad…not because he was just a panzy and Boromir died.  Also, Gandalf was the third elven ring of power holder!!  How could they have left that out!!

Again, I am digressing…sorry. 

dont worry about digressing- thats what i make these thread for

i agree with all of your points, however id like to add that what tolkien does best in my opinion is the journeying……the camping through wild lands, the walking, the maps…..probably why i liked the fellowship much more than the other two, it was more focussed on the journey.

i also think tolkien's key method is less is more….which is obvious in sauron and especially magic in middle earth..it makes it somehow fresh

rich

richsabre said:

I had to read the description of Frodo waking up in the barrow 3 or 4 times and I'm still not certain I understood what exactly happened there and whether he was really awake or not awake.  THere was a hand, there was a shadow…but it was very confusing for me.

And you are correct, the maps were awesome, and even some of his descriptions, "It was sort of a shallow crevasse with a rock thingie hanging off of it"

schmoo34 said:

i cant remember exactly if he was or not, but im re reading the fellowship so will take note of that when i get to the chapter

a similar time happens i think in the house of tom bombadil when frodo hears hoofs on the grass, but wakes up and finds none…..but during this apparent dream sees visions that we see later on in the book

rich

I also remember the barrow downs being really confusing. It's been a very long time since i've read TFOTR, but i recall not being really sure what the wights were, or what was going on when I read it. Was just a bit confusing i guess.

As for how the quest would have gone if they had an elf lord? Thats very hard to say. The thing is, the quest to destroy the ring had lots of problems, but in the end, it passed the test with flying colors. Think about it… out of the 9 members, there were 2 casualties (i'd argue 1.5). Thats actually pretty amazing when you consider what they're up against. I think glorfindel would have been a huge help… namely because I think he and gandalf would have been able to take Durin's Bane… but who would you cut? While i joke about the incompetence of the fellowship… its really hard to say any one member, even the most seemingly useless, was without purpose.

Cut frodo? Sure, he's a chump, but what good is Sam without frodo? We have to remember, EVERYTHING sam does that makes him a bad ass… fighting off shelob, carrying frodo up the kill, storming the Orc fort… its all out of dedication to frodo. If you remove Frodo from the equation, Sam really doesn't have much to fight for.

Boromir… boromir f*cked up… sure, but look what happened. Sam and Frodo ran off alone, and the party split. If that didn't happen, who knows that they would have found a better outcome. Boromirs actions, while negative in themsleves, seem to have created a scenario that allowed for success.

I actually took a class on the LOTR in college… it was a class called Capstone that basically was an intro to college coarse… taught you how to write essays better… how to utilize the schools various learning aids, etc… and the professors were allowed to tailor the classes subject material to whatever they wanted… so my professor picked Tolkien and the Lord of the Rings (best class ever, in case you're curious… he was a history teacher, and a good one at that, and taught the class as such).

One of the lessons was about Gollum, and how one could argue that he was a hero. Basically, while gollum did all the wrong things, his actions, intentional or not, resulted in the destruction of the 1 ring. Without him, its fairly safe to say that Frodo would have attempted to claim the ring, that the nazgul would have showed up on mount doom and taken it, and all the efforts of the free people would have been in vain. So while certain characters may seem like they're all bad… if you look at the big picture, they ended up helping more then actually hurting in the long run. In that sense, even wicked things like gollum are capable of creating good things.

2 very good posts captain poe- i agree with the gollum subject, however id like to use that in explaining why glorfindel would have been bad for the company.

say he had joined gandalf and took down another balrog- then gandalf would never have fell, and never have returned more powerful….so it oculd be argued gandalf falling was just as important to the destruction of the ring (and  the saving of gondor and rohan) as anything else

again as you say with gollum- a negative has positive consequences…..and this all comes back to gandalf saying that gollum still had his part to play in the events of the ring- basically once a ring bearer, always a ringbearer….and while a ringbearer still lives they are intwined in the rings influence…look at bilbo and frodo's reunion in rivendell after he'd given up the ring….it still had its power. gollum and sauron were both chasing it alike, and sam and frodo were both obviously very intwined in the rings power. the rest were dead…

it also shows that frodo, like bilbo, showing mercy was a good idea….and of course has the message of having mercy to your enemies, even when they betray your trust.

so this all shows that tolkien….an author claimed by some to be shallow in his writing, had many layers and levels…these people just dont know how to read it

as for the barrow wights, i found the events pretty clear when reading it, im going through that chapter again, so its probably one of those parts that you have to read twice to get its clear meaning

rich

Here's one for ya, Rich.

Why not take the ring directly to the valley of the dead and have Aragon (aka king of the dead) command them to march nonstop without food or rest (because they don't need any) straight to mt. Doom with the ring and once the ring is destroyed, their service is considered rendered.

schmoo34 said:

interesting- but given the nature of the dead and their weak will…would they not just be weakened and take it to sauron himself?….i think personally that the rings power was more than aragorns in this (and any) matter

on that note i think any other race than a hobbit would probably do this…..after all its said that hobbits show remarkable resiliance to the ring, and theyre lack of interest in the outside world probably helped

rich

 The thought of Glorfindel and another elf replacing Merry and Pippin sent my mind reeling.

If Elrond did that, the Fellowship would have been able to make it across the mountains. It was only having four hobbits that prevented them from making it. Two more elves and two less hobbits would have meant they lost Bill the Pony, but make it over.

That means they never face the Balrog and Gandalf never falls.

The Fellowship reaches Lorien in one piece.

It therefore follows that the journey down the river ends differently. Likely, the Fellowship can avoid the White Hand orcs all together.

No hobbits to Isengard. (And no ent there either.)

No Gandalf the White, which means Rohan falls to the Army of the White Hand without much of a fight. The Riders of the Mark have already been dismissed so the homeland falls and the people never make it to Helms Deep before the are slaughtered.

The Fellowship heads into the Dead Marshes.

Meanwhile, the Army of the Eye to Minas Tirith. Denethor kills himself and his son in despair. 

Minas Tirith falls and their is wholesale slaughter.

Right about this time, the Fellowship succeeds in destroying the ring.

In the hour of its greatest triumph, the Army of the Eye finds itself without any leadership. The Lidless Eye is gone as are the Nazgul.

Saruman steps in as the new ruler of Middle Earth. He then goes about the business of conquering the rest of the free people, dwarves, elves and hobbits with his massive army. 

interesting conclusion goblin king…..mine would perhaps go along the lines of (with some diffferences)

-glorfindel replaces merry and pippin

-the fellowship still do not make it over the mountains …i say this as it was obviously sauron who had a hand in the storms, and i do not think that he would have rested until half of the mountains had fallen on them, hobbits or no

-fellowship enter moria……things go perhaps better with no pippin to drop rock down the well, though i think its likely the goblins were already alerted. either way glorfindel and other fights off goblins with ease preventing frodo from getting speared.

-fellowship flight still occurs and they still fight balrog….now it is debateable if glorfindel and gandalf could have taken it down without at least one of them dieing, but lets say they kill it and both live.

-gandalf remains leader of the fellowship and guides them to lorien for safe haven….galadriel/celeborn and gandalf consult on the ring and perhaps make some solid plans on where to go after the river.

-fellowship leave lorien and go down the great river, orcs still attack however they are repelled, or at the very least the fellowship escape without any deaths so boromir survives (and with the power of the fellowship does not yet go mad)

-Aragorn and Bormir decide to make their way south to minas tirith as decided for aragorn to retake the throne

-all the rest fellowship reach emyn muil along with all their ropes etc. (as gandalf had planned this in lorien)….Gollum (trys or not?) lets go with trys to still take ring from frodo and is captured by the fellowship……gandalf lets him live as captive under his watchful eye

-dead marshes without much event…..

-around this time rohan is getting destroyed piece by piece, theoden never recovers from sarumans/grimas treachery and the kingdom falls without resistance with all the commanders still loyal to theoden being murdered. A significant proportion of the riders are turned to follow sarumans orders and join his hoarde of goblins and uruk hai and prepare to march on gondors N.W. borders

-fellowship somehow find way into mordor, perhaps by the morgul pass and cirith ungol - shelob cant fight the power of the fellowship and flees.

-aragorn and boromir find minas tirith in pieces- denethor mad and faramir dead. aragorn takes his place as king however boromir, mad with grief tries to kill aragorn- a duel commences with aragorn killing boromir ….(interestingly enough, in the drafts tolkien was going to have boromir betray aragorn and join saruman!)…anyways the victory is short lived as orcs enter minas tirith and kill aragorn- gondor falls

-having NO forces to draw saurons forces away from gorgoroth, the fellowship find it difficult to find their way through- gollum here escapes and alarts the orcs, who, after an epic batle between the fellowship and thousands of orcs, capture the fellowship and the ring

- Sauron gains the ring and rules middle  earth!!!!!

Goblin King said:

A less dire ending to this scenario:

With Saruman leading two armies, Gandalf breaks up the Fellowship to mount a counterattack. Aragorn and Borimir rally the survivors of Minas Tirath into an army. The dwarf and elves of the Fellowship rally their people to resist Saruman Aragorn goes on the offensive against the army of the Lidless Eye using the Army of the Dead.

While Sauruman fights on two fronts Gandalf and the hobbits make their way to Fangorn.

The remaining humans of Middle Earth are drawn by Aragorn and Borimir to Helms Deep for a showdown. They are joined there by Glorfindel and an army of elves (kind of like the movie).

Isengard is crushed in a surprise attack by Ents. The Sauruman army at Helms Deep is destroyed by angry trees.

Gandalf enters the tower and faces Saurman. Gandalf emerges victorious as Gandalf the White.

Aragorn concedes the throne to Borimir. What few people remain in Middle Earth at last have a new king. Aragorn joins the elves in departing Middle Earth.