Stag Lord said:

Sorry, Stags, but I still don't think you're quite right. While Cersei and Jaime together would be unpleasant to the realm, the "taint" on Myrcella and Tommen isn't what give's Stanni's Rebellion legitimacy, it's the illegitimacy of Myrcell and Tommen that does. The fact of the matter is that Cersei is a married woman and that her children were fathered by someone other than her husband, thus making them illegitimate bastards. It doesn't matter that the father is truly Jaime for Stannis' claim. It could be Jon Arryn or Barristan Selmy for all Stannis cares. The only thing that matters is that they are not Robert's children. That is part of their parentage that matters for Stannis' claim.

That said, look at Robert himself. His claim on the throne was arguable more tenuous than the Lannister children, but he solidified it by crushing the opposition. History is dictated by the winners, and Kevan and co. only had Stannis left to eliminate before the major contention to his niece and nephews' birth was removed. (Prior to the landing of Aegon and Connington) Kevan and their supporters had very nearly finalized this process and restored at least as much a peace as Robert's reign ever was, yet we hear nothing of Varys working to destroy Robert's reign to bring the Targaryens back. Hell, if he could have removed Robert early in his reign, it would have been even easier to restore the Targaryen dynasty. No, I'm sorry, but I just can't really buy it that his game is that simple because it would have been so much more profitable to have done it so much earlier.

Stag Lord said:

~ Just wondering, Chris... is Targaryan Kool Aid red or more of an orangish color?

madkasel said:

BWAHAHAHAHA! Quote of the week.

Kennon said:

Well the other side to this is that there would be no point in restoring Targaryens when the heir was still a kid and need a regent. To restore the Targs you would have had to wait till Dany/Aegon got old enough.

There are quite a ot lof characters that were only infants at the time of Robert's rebellion, aren't there (Dany, Jon, Robb, Aegon)? The switching of babies/concealing of true identities has developed as an ongoing theme in this series.

Maybe Aegon was double-switched by Varys (Whose name btw has a Targaryen ring to it...), so that Jon Connington was the plan B that a few people knew about (including Connington himself), but in reality the heir was hidden with the Daynes...

LaughingTree said:

Sure, but at the time there were certainly lords who supported them staunchly enough that they would have made acceptable Regents who would have then turned authority over at the heir's age of maturity without a struggle. Doran Martell comes to mind as a likely candidate.

Kennon said:

I see what you're saying but the other thing to consider is the early in Robert's reign he was still quite popular among the small folk. You also had Balon's uprising which by all accounts the whole realm really support Robert, Stannis and Ned in putting it down.  In the early years following the rebellion Houses that could have support Targ would have been mostly just the Martells and some of the smaller Crownlands and maybe some Riverlands Houses. Not enough to sustain a rebellion especially while trying to develop a new young Targ ruler. And Doran is so cautious I doubt that plan would have appealed to his "never take the field unless you know you are going win" vibe.

It just doesn't make sense to me strategically for Varys-Illyrio to try to replace Robert early on. Seems far more intelligent to play the long game at this point and do what they did and wait for the right moment (eg, the rebellion coalition weaking and dividing on itself).

Stag Lord said:

Can maybe agree on character development.  Disagree on the points in bold.  Dany acted pretty much as I've always read/interpreted her character.  Granted, she's never been a favorite of mine/I've always found her chapters hard to read (at least post-Drogo's death); but, all of her actions were pretty much exactly what I expected of her.  

Stag Lord said:

I too would be extremely disappointed if Stannis is dead.  I actually like his character quite a lot.  Please, GRRM, just have Dany fall off Drogon or die, and end it with Stannis on the Iron Throne. 

Kennon said:

Hah, just reading trhough the thread now & was about to post; but waited to read the rest of the thread - Drew's response was better than what I was going to post  

People meantioning that characters cannot die in their own chapters considering Jon Snow, we have had several prologue and epilogue characters die (yes I know they are lesser characters) in their own chapters.

Also are we sure that Brienne is not dead? ;) she could be once dead and revived or even someone else as there is thoros of myr who could possibly do the same trick Melisandre did with Mance. (There is even the strong item to bind it, the Oathkeeper).

I don't agree with any of you on Meereen or on the alleged "bad character development" on the part of Daenerys. This time I really liked the Meereen parts. The eastern culture was much more fleshed out and a lot of interesting moral dilemmas were posed to Daeny there.  Funny, by the way, how so many people who detest Tywin Lannister want Daeny just to become like him. But she is still a very young woman who still has a lot to learn, and I am glad that Martin gives her time and opportunity to develop, instead of just making her the stereotypical "young hero of the hour" who jumps on the back of her oh-so-willing-but-of-course-still-very-dangerous dragon. Read Eragon if you want this nonsense. In the end, only all her hard choices, failings and mistakes and the real experience she gains through this will give her character true legitimacy to finally become the Saviour / the Hero / the Ruler or whatever Martin holds in petto for her.

I also don't get any of this whining about "the storyline" not having been advanced. There was SO much going on in Dance, more than in any book except maybe Storm of Swords. Maybe it's not the storyline everybody else has made up in the past years, but I am glad that Martin still writes these books, and not everybody else.

I admit there should have been one climax including some story-resolution in the end, though. But I also read that it was Martin's editor who is mainly responsable for that.

I think you're somewhat in the minority with your strong positve reaction, Aegon. (though it was nice to see that your head wasn't smashed by the Lannisters as a baby!)

For myself... I really like the books and enjoy Martin's style, but I'm no longer "in his cult."

The more I think back on this book, the more I mull over the events that took place, and the more I look at the story as a whole, the more I appreciate Dance (and, slightly, Feast). In this series, much like David Gerrold does in my other favorite books series "The War Against the Chtorr," Martin shows us how, even in the face of an outside threat to our survival, people will still fight amongst themselves for the trappings of power. This is a series about the characters, not the events, though the events are epic in scope. And the history is so damn rich, every glimpse into the past is a joy for me.

I can easily say that Dance is my second favorite book of the series, and it could possibly pass Storm, but it may take a few more re-reads for that to happen.

JerusalemJones said:

Well said .

That is almost exactly how most of my friends and I feel about Dance.

madkasel said: