Mighty Jim said:

Jon Connington seems to be very convinced he is himself, and I'm going to trust his judgement for now. ^_^

Lot of good stuff here.

Kennon: why do you get the impression that varys is NOt acting for teh good of the realm? i think its is pretty evdient that he is - and the good of the realm is is sole motivation. the Lanisters can't be allowed to claim the Throne. Tommen is a child of incest and adultery as is Myrcella - and these facts are in the open now. No matter what happens at cersei's trial - these alleagations cna never be put abck in teh box and as long as the Lannisetres hold teh throne - there will be no peace in teh realm. They have to go - all of them for atability to return.

Why Varys isn't supporting Stannis is an intersting question - but maybe he just wnats the stability of the targaryen dynasty back. Garnted aerys was a nut job, but they ahd plenty of good rulers before him and maybe Varys thinks with proper guidance Dany and Aegon will eb fit consorts and peaceful rulers. But first things first: the Lannisters and their tainted children HAVE to go.

LT: So well said. i too ahve been a big Daenerys fan since Book 1 - and have always found her the msot engagaing and fascinating character in the novels. Teh Meereenese Knot not only led to poor  and plodding plotting - it led to some bad writing; in terms of charcter development and what had been established. Many of dany's actions were clearly foolish and her refusal to heed the advcie of people she knew she could trsut liek slemy and the bloodriders was hard to beleive. You can see Martin's struggles with the plot very clearly and very painfully in the Meereen sections - and this sentiment seems to eb unviersal.

Lone wanderer; fully agree on Darth Stannis. There is very little i am sure about after closing teh Dance, but one thing is that Bolton's letter is mostly lies adn Satnnis does not die off screen in the dark and snow. Martin ahs invested way too much in the character for him to go out like that.

Ramsay's letter makes most sense if the Boltons have Mance, but not Stannis. Mance could have told them of Melisandre's vision of the girl fleeing to the wall, that's why Ramsay now turns his attention to Jon: He assumes like Mance that it is "Arya". He has no idea that Theon and Jeyne joined Stannis.

On a related note: How do you interpret Theon's last line (you have to know your name!) I was very impressed by his return to himself (and I really liked the path told through the chapter-headers: From Reek over the Ghost of Winterfell to Theon) but this last line reeks of the Reek in him. Is he still Ramsay's creature, deep inside, or waht daoes this mean?

Rubinon said:

I'm shunting it onto the big cart of 'You need to remember who you are' theme.

Arya needs to remember her identity in order to use her new powers for the good of her 'pack' (rather than becoming subsumed into the creepy Faceless Man identity that she's being brainwashed with)

Jon will need to remember who he is in order to get out of Ghost and back to being the saviour of Westeros (the Varamyr chapter laid all the seeds for that "eventually you forget who you are and just become the beast" struggle)

Dany needs to remember that she's the Queen of Dragons in order to get out of Mereen and back on the path to her destiny

Poor old Theon (who kind of deserved what he got, but who I'm glad gets to have some kind of redemption now) needed to remember who he really was (Ironborn, noble at heart, not Ramsay's weird little kick-toy) in order to avoid becoming Reek/A Beast completely and to give him a path back to finally being a man for once.

Long story short, I'm willing to bank on Theon being back on the path of righteousness now. Either his shambling grave of a body is going to help the Stark's win back the North, or else he's heading back to the Iron Isles with Asha to tie up the 'Rise of Euron' plotline somehow.

Stag Lord said:

Right...... Dany and Aegon having a relationship wouldn't be messed up, but Tommen and Myrcella are grotesques? There's a really bizarre double standard in villifiying two children whose personalities we've seen nothing but relatively nice things about, but at the same time edifying the Targaryen dynasty and their marriage practices. Lol, They had plenty of good rulers, but they had plenty of bad ones other than The Mad King as well. Even Targs that didn't make it to the throne were often off their rocker. Aerion Brightflame didn't make it to the throne, right? I'd have to go double check. Regardless, the Dunk and Egg stories show that he was pretty out there.

As for there not being peace in the realm, it sure looks like it was getting closer and closer based on Kevan's work at stabilizing things. I sure took Varys statements to mean that he was killing Kevan because he was being too successful at stabilizing it all. I suppose that's another possibility. Maybe Varys isn't a die hard Targaryen supporter for reasons that we can't fathom, maybe he's a die hard Lannister hater for reasons we can't fathom.

Stag Lord said:

Well, then you can imagine how the  book just sang right along for those of us who have always had little use for Dany and the dull oversea sideplots that so weakly bore on the Westeros story.

Ugh.

Is chaotic Varys with his unclear agenda the perfumed senechall that Dany should beware? It would be a bit obvious if it really was the perfumed guy in Meereen (oh, here is another thing I liked about Meereen: The sentiment of the big Dornish guy that he can't keep the names apart. Well spoken, brother.). And since Varys seems to be playing both sides, it is likely that she will trust him when (if) she comes to Westeros, and that he will reveal his true motives later.

Rubinon said:

Good call.

Hadn't actually thought of that. But now you say it I think it fits perfectly.

For what it's worth; my money is on Varys ending up having none of the possible motives that are obvious to us at this point in time. Far more likely that his game involves dark powers, sorcery and cheating death; beggaring the realm is all just a prelude to the long-night that he hopes to usher in and the deal with the devil that he hopes to make.

Somewhere along the line he'll probably be revealed to be ringleadering/paymastering the Faceless Men and being the man behind the 'go steal the book about killing dragons' sub-plot. Which, I guess, is why Dany should probably avoid trusting him.

People have half-jestingly called him a 'sorceror' one too many times for my liking, and the ideas that the series' most slippery and underhand character might be doing it for (1) love of the Targaryens, or (2) because he cares about Westeros' children, are both unworkable.

Also, speaking of prophecies to Dany, does anybody have any idea whatsoever who Quaithe is and/or why she cares about Dany's progress?

Rubinon said:

Good thought! Stag Lord also pointed out to me that the ship Tyrion and gang were on could be translated to perfumed senechall.

madkasel said:

True - but i now think that was a red herring since taht ship ended up pretty much driftwood after the big storm - and i kind fo assume the salvers sank it. So Dany didn't really ahve anything to fear form that particualr ship. I think the perfumed seneschal was Hizdahr - her erstwhile husband and would be poisoner.

I cannot believe that Varys is so naive to think all he's been doing has been for the good of the realm, certainly not in a short-term perspective, and even long-term this claim is rather dubious. I cannot agree that the war that he had a part in plunging Westeros into is a small price to pay for restoring a Targaryen dynasty. It's cute that he seems to think Aegon will be an awesome king, but even if they do manage to make him king, it seems unlikely the realm will be at peace in it's war-torn state, with no harvests and Winter™ on the march. So for all his professions of his love for the realm, his actions have apparently been to help prepare the way for the Targaryens with little regard for the needs of the realm and its people. And I can't even guess why he is such a staunch supporter of the Targaryens, so I remain suspicious of his motives.

All that being said, I want to see the tv version of the epilogue scene with Varys and Kevan sooo bad. While reading, I couldn't help but seeing Conleth Hill in my mind, looking apologetically at Kevan with crossbow in hand. It'd be brilliant.

Well - to be clear: Varys played very little role in "plunging the realm into war". His conditional support of the Lannisters was because he thought they offered a better prospect for stability. They have proven to be a disaster and their actions are responsible for war - going all the way back to Ned's execution. So i think his Lannister hate (at this point) is pretty justified and consistent with hsi goals of peace and satbility.

But I do have to concede that in smuggling out Dany and Viserys (and maybe Aegon) he was laying teh seeds for a War of restoration - which of course woudl have been bad all in all for the small folk of the realm. So i am having a little trouble reconciling my reading of his character and how he ahs evolved. I ahve to reconcile his "concern for the Realm" with his apparent Targaryen loyalties - and I don't have enough information yet.

Stag Lord said:

If you believe that, then I believe that you have been thoroughly deceived by the books' greatest deceiver.

Why would Varys, a eunuch who (apparently) grew up in the Free Cities, stealing and blackmailing his way to wealth/power, give a rotten fig about peace in Westeros?

Sure, one of the Targaryens (most recent Aerys?) brought him over to serve as a spymaster (for a wage), but why would that make a coldhearted black-marketeer like Varys particularly care for the Targaryens, never mind their curious foreign realm and its weird alien customs? In particular, while he may employ urchins to steal and kill for him, I don't see him starting a nursery anywhere. Is this a man who honestly cares for the wellbeing of the realm's youngest?

Sure, Varys may well currently be in a phase of flattering himself as doing this 'for the realm' (at least, when in front of the camera), but there's no way that he can be sincere. Given what we think we know about his background and his ruthlessness, it'd just be a bizarre set of motivations.

Indeed, does Varys even sincerely believe that New Aegon is the real deal? We think that he might me a "Mummer's Dragon", Vary's might well know that he is. And if he does, how does putting a fake king on the throne grant any more stability than putting an illegitimate one on it?

Put another way, who thinks that New Aegon will get the Iron Throne without a serious fight? Will the Lannisters really just hand it over without a military struggle? And, if you think that they're a spent force, will the Tyrells? Another marriage for Maergery? I think not. As the last powerhouse left standing, they ought to be the first in line to slap down the new Targaryen pretender. Further, even if you go down the Martell/Tyrell support New Aegon route; can he honestly win both of them at the same time? No way, the enmity between them is just too entrenched. With New Aegon, more war is the only certainty.

I agree with your arguments in your last two paragraphs. As i siad in my post - i am not sure how to reconcile his designs on Restoration with his goal of stability in the realm. And i am on the record as suspecting Aegon is not what he seems. but - I don't think we have enough information eyt to make a final determination on the Spider.

Your case is well reasoned - but I am comfortabel with my reading of Varys as having a deep desire for epace and prosperity. These two goals can only be accomplished with stability and legitimacy of rule - especially in a dynastic monarchical society -a dn teh Lannisters ain't it. Varys was tarumatically scarred at an early age by forced castration. Psycholgically - he is an outsider and in garve physical danger in a very violent world. For his own survival, and indeed, i would argue for his own inetrnal spritual and mental health - he craves peace adn consistency - form the state elvel on down. He is smart enough to play teh agem as well as Littlefinger - but he feels he is acting for teh good of the realm and finds psychological sceurity in that pursuit. I read him as one of the tru heroes of the saga.