careful!  Your words just put a chain around your neck…….survival of the species means individuals don't matter?  Be very careful……..because the whole theme of wh40k could well be that the ends do NOT justify the means….that the 10,000 year tyranny of the imperium might actually be STRENGTHENING  chaos, not denying it………that these 'hard' decisions made by inquisitors and senators are damning us all to oblivion…………

Well, if they did not took this "decisions" the imperium would be damned too. The only question is "when". Nine millina ago or five millenias ahead.

The reason an exterminatus is orderd is to contain a specific thread that cant be fought in conventional manner (Because there are no reenforcements in time or the enemy is just too strong) before it is able to "infest" other planets and further spread into the system. It is the last choice a chapter master/captain or inquisitor can order and with it comes serious consequences. A world is ultimatly lost to the imperium, millions of civilians are dead. But this is for the only reson to save dozens of other worlds. It is a death sentence for a billion of souls and consignts them into oblivion. Nobody takes this easily but it is the duty of the office. When does a background become grimdark? Well, when the murder of millions is not a good, but the right choice.

And the battle against chaos is already a battle that will wage to the end of time. The emotions of the living are the pure essence the warp is made of, and in ultimate war even the most pius soldiers feeds the dark gods with his rightous hate. The only exeption might be individuals like sisters of silence or grey knights that can keep the power of their emotions as a ward against the warp but everytime a blood angels death company marine goes into berserk mode, khorne is smiling.

The dark gods do not care who is winning, all they care for is an unending war and that the emperor/kaela mensha kaine does not rise again.

Your last sentence is precisely my point :)

Chaos is winning so long as there exists war and misery….peace kills Chaos, not space marines or battleships….the setting is Grimdark because the Imperium is fighting the wrong war the wrong way; ultimately, we're losing, bad.  And the more we fight losing, the more we lose….so, as it currently stands, of course individual normal people don't factor in…..but the status quo is untenable….the status quo is a pathway to ultimate destruction…necrons and tyranids and enslavers can ultimately defeat Chaos (by wiping out all material life); but that's not a very happy victory for humanity (or anybody else).  So, ultimately, the answer to the thread's question could well be 'YES!' normal people do matter - even one soul in torment is feeding Chaos…but if all human souls suddenly knew peace, true peace, then what of Chaos?  Nothing but an endless field of calm energy.  Or so it seems to me…

Zappiel said:

They are so much more than this.

Genetic modification alone does not cover what wrought the Astartes. Science is not the only thing that saw their creation. They may not be gods, but they were created from the blood of the sons of a being who might as well be.

The Astartes are more than the product of genetic science - the Emperor's science alone wrought generations of supersoldiers before the Astartes… the Thunder Warriors and the Adeptus Custodes both were the result of genetic engineering more sophisticated and more advanced than any that had come before. The Primarchs were something more - a fusion of science and sorcery, the likes of which the universe had never before borne witness to.

The Astartes were made in the image of, and with the blood of, the Primarchs. The Primarchs were, if not literally then figuratively, gods of battle, the sons of the God-Emperor of Mankind. The Astartes are their sons, human beings who have been elevated and waxed transcendent by the blood of gods; they're heroes in the ancient greek sense, carrying the spark of the divine in their veins.

hmmmmmm….our notions of "the Divine" differ……..there is absolutely 0 % divinity in space marines……the Emprah (heresy alert!) is not a god….he's human, with psionic/'magic' powers; but he ain't no god.  Sure, he was tougher than the four chaos 'gods'; but they ain't anything close to godly either.  Hell, they're just castoff emotional wastage.  He has no hint of omniscience nor omnipotence.  I'm here to clear the bedazzlement from our eyes, so that we may clearly see our beloved space marines and their primarchs for what they really honestly are.  None of this hero-worshipping, 'they are gods of war' sheit for me, thanx…..seems a bit too fanboyish, no?  Now, don't get me wrong:  space marines (and, well, war) is my Dark Angel; I love this shit….but let's not sugarcoat it; let's call it for what it is.

Zappiel said:

Heresy indeed! To compare the world of Warhammer 40k to our current concepts of faith and divinity is somewhat strange in the first place but let's try: The Emperor could in fact be viewed in a very similar light to the second coming of Jesus (Except that in 40k fluff the Emperor would have been born only slightly after Jesus (In what is now turkey). His Immortality from that point could be construed as one aspect of divinity.  The Emperor is a much more aggressive individual (Again a correlation to biblical prophesy of the second coming). His Psychic powers go WAY beyond those of even a psyker primaris into the realm of miracles! (Such as the ability to "heal" machinery with but a touch! Overall; throughout the fluff we presented with a very convincing case for a fantasy version of divinity! Thus; with his Primarchs being the direct result of his genetics and his science we are presented with a group of twenty beings who are for all intents and being "Angels". (About half of whom turn on him in yet another biblical allegory!) The Space Marines are the direct result of the mixing of Primarch DNA with normal (Though still "best available" examples) Human DNA and you have something that could roughly be described as a demi-god!

All this is said with the Caveat that 40k is a fantasy fiction world and I do not mean to impugn anyone's very real religeous beliefs. Comparing 40k or D&D mythologies to actual religeous faith is a slippery place to go and I generally consider it  a dangerous conversation.

Zappiel said:

Tell that to the untold quadrillions of people who worship him.

From the perspective of the citizenry of the Imperium, the Space Marines are the literal sons of the Emperor's own sons. They are, in that sense, figurative demigods. That they don't fit your personal definition does not change this notion.

Zappiel said:

Again, depends on one's definitions. I tend not to use the term Chaos Gods anyway - Ruinous Powers is a more fitting moniker, IMO. Even so, as much as they're nothing more than pseudosentient coalescences of emotion and thought… they're also fundamental forces in the universe, entities that defy easy comprehension in their ephemeral nature.

[QUOTE efidm=758052]I'm here to clear the bedazzlement from our eyes, so that we may clearly see our beloved space marines and their primarchs for what they really honestly are.[/QUOTE]

Actually, what you seem to be trying to do is strip away the mystery and fantasy from a setting founded upon those things. 40k isn't hard science fiction - it's fantasy adorned with trappings that superficially resemble sci-fi. The 40k universe is one resplendent with the supernatural and the mysterious, one where logic and reason and plain truths are paths to self-deception and crippling delusion. It has more in common with myth and legend than anything else.

I'm just calling it for what it is.

now we're mixing up reality with 40k……I fully understand that, In Universe, the citizenry of the Imperium know their Emprah is God, and his space marines are the Angels of Death….that is clearly and well established.  However, we poor muggles stuck in the 21st century have a certain perspective on things that is more…objective.  We know more than ANYONE in the 40k universe; we can see the whole thing.  Now, from OUR perspective (and this has nothing to do with personal preferences regarding religiousity or god), we can clearly see that space marines are NOT in any way shape or form godly; they're men with a cool health-care package and a lot of spare aggression.

To be clear:  it is not my intention to steal any mystery or wonder from the universe; far from it.  I am beholden to the belief that 40k is NOT hard science fiction (although what a dark dark future 40k would be if it was pure sci fi!!!)  but is in fact space fantasy.  However, 40k is based on the rules of our physical universe - it really only slips beyond hard sf with its conceptions of the Warp and psykers.  Therefore, we can and should regard things in 40k with a scientific eye, so far as it goes.  With that in mind, our beloved Astartes are perfectly explainable.

I like 'Ruinous Powers' as a term as well, but it takes longer to type……;)

(oh, and I'm not sure they can be classed as 'fundamental forces' in our universe:  they didn't exist until the Old Ones' experiments got out of hand, meaning the actual forces we regard as the Ruinous Powers are not universal in nature……although the energy field/dimension known as the Warp is presumably intrinsic to reality.)

As for the Emprah being godly, well…….to borrow an example from star trek (gasp!  great Scott, don't go there!), let us look at Q:  Q has more power in the snap of his fingers than the Emprah could ever dream of…..and there is no way in hell any of us would consider Q to be a god - massively, sickeningly powerful, yes; but no god.  Again, I don't deny that, in universe, Imperial citizens can, do, and must worship him as god; I'm merely stating that WE shouldn't.  We have the perspective and objectivity to see things in 40k for how they 'really' would be; we can imagine ourselves there, and can see it through our own eyes.  Our characters can worship the Emprah and revere the Astartes; but we are objective, we (more or less) know what's going on.[And just to clear up a couple points:  the Immortal Emperor of Mankind was born 9000 years before Christ, in ancient Anatoly (yes, Turkey), the birthplace of human civilization as we currently understand it.  Immortality does not equate with godliness (elsewise, every vampire would be a god, and what a tiresome pantheon that would be…).  And I would argue that His ability to heal machinery is merely Him telling the Star Dragon/'Deus in Machina' to do it (which is, of course, a tremendously powerful thing to do, too….)]

(and having said all that, i too agree that 40k is a perfect vehicle for mythic exploration and legendary exploits; none of what i've said impinges upon the experience of a galactic citizen stuck in the grimdark….I merely want us 2k people to keep our perspective and not go crazy worshipping a bunch of bloodthirsty goons as gods…..war and tyranny suck in real life; but in the grimdark, hell yes!)

Zappiel said:

Only if you approach them as purely gene-enhanced soldiers. I can't view them as such because of their origins. The genetics of the Emperor are beyond human (as we actually know from the background book Xenology that psykers have a physiological/genetic component to their abilities), and from the Emperor the Primarchs were made, using a mixture of science and sorcery. The Emperor himself is orders of magnitude more than any normal psyker - a lifespan of some thirty-nine thousand years at the time of his internment into the Golden Throne, a capacity for knowledge and understanding that exceeds the greatest augmented minds of the Mechanicum of Mars, psychic power sufficient to pose a real challenge to the Ruinous Powers and a presence such that no human being who ever met the Emperor has ever doubted the simple fact that he was the Emperor.

The Primarchs themselves possessed supernatural capabilities, and were each in some way psychic - Magnus the Red's psychic mastery is well-known, as are the precognitive sight of both Sanguinius and Curze, but less so is Corax's ability to walk unseen, or even the raw and awe-inspiring presence that each Primarch possessed to some extent.

The Astartes are created from the genes of the Primarchs. They are the result of incredbly complex genetic engineering the likes of which human science had never before seen, yet designed to be mass-produced in a way that previous genhanced soldiers (such as the Thunder Warriors or Adeptus Custodes) could not be. Each Space Marine is the fusion of carefully-selected human beings (chosen for physiological, psychological and genetic compatibility) and a series of implanted organs that automatically retroengineer the body and mind of a neophyte through processes developed during the dawn of the Imperium. The science behind each implant is beyond the capability of almost any human or posthuman mind to comprehend (many have tried, none have successfully replicated the Emperor's work), and each implant exists only because of the fusion of science and sorcery that created the Primarchs.

In essence, defining what makes a Space Marine a Space Marine is a lot harder than it looks, and is far from being a matter of pure science.

As for the matter of the interaction between the Warp and reality… the Warp presses close to reality in many places, and the mere existence of the Ruinous Powers demonstrates that the veil between is not as impermeable as might be comforting to think. The Warp impinges upon the fabric of reality every moment of every day… it is an influence that cannot be easily discarded.

I liked it back when there was more mystery and ambiguity about the nature of the Emperor and his supposed divinity. Miracles were less blatant, atheists and separatists actually had a foot to stand on, and there was always a possibility that the Chaos worshippers are right all along. 

Now days everybody knows the Imperium are the good guys^tm even when they are screaming for hatred, genocide and ignorance. Nobody even bats an eyelid anymore. You can have Inquisitor Hitler authorizing the exterminatus of planet Auschwitz to protect the purity of the human race from xeno infiltration, and everyone is HOO HAH IMPERIUM FUCK YEAH! 

But hey, at least they aren't Tau. 

Zappiel said:

To me, that sounds pretty much like:

And God said: "let there be ligh". Chuck Norris answered: "You could say 'please'"

Now, there is something Chuck Norris-like in the Emperor, isn't it?

So, how can you claim that the Emperor is no god?

oh, Tristelune, u didn't go there!  Let us leave The Chuck out of this….he will only confuse our notions of deity beyond repair…..and Guest469 has illuminated the kernel of my thoughts quite expertly….my real concern is that, nowadays, we don't batt an eyelash when we scream:  "DEATH TO THE MUTANT!!", because we 'know' that the Emprah and his bad boys are the good guys…….but that kinda thing is pretty much not cool…..the moral ambiguity has essentially left 40k, because we're allowed to do anything we like cause we're the good guys………….really?  Again, this 'Emprah hero worship' is clouding the waters……make no mistake, motivations aside:  the Emperor was a tyrant who enslaved his own species in order to achieve apotheosis.  The supposed 'next evolutionary step' of humanity, namely everyone evolving psychic powers, cannot happen so long as the imperium stands:  all psyker genetic material is weeded out of the gene pool by the Black Ships and fed to the Emprah.  The Emprah is stalling human evolution!  So that he can be a god!  Hubris indeed.

The Ruinous Powers exist because the Old Ones created a bunch of 'super soldiers' whose minds tapped into the Warp dimension and stirred up the latent energies there.  Chaos is a side-effect of:  "we're the good guys and we can do whatever we want because we're the good guys" mentality.  But that theme seems to have been lost in 2012's version of 40k…..Conrad Curze allowed himself to be executed on the Emprah's order in order to prove that he (curze) was right to do what he did, because the Emprah did the same thing……i.e. the Emprah is a tyrant whose only goal is power, who brooks NO interference with his power and NO rivals.  If we accept that the Emprah has foresight, then we must must assume he saw the Heresy…wanted the Heresy…to weed out those amongst his sons who would think to rival him…..he foresaw that he would be a god (just didn't realize the nature of that 'godliness'…), so he wasn't worried about any consequences….

And No1….you know i like you…..but i think you misinterpreted my statement:  "…Astartes are perfectly explainable."  In my worldview, the scientific method is perfectly able to explain anything (indeed, nothing can be found to elude rigorous scientific inquiry - it's the very nature of the universe itself).  I don't need to resort to hand-waving and hocus pocus to 'splain things.  I don't see 'science' and 'sorcery' as two distinct things:  indeed, i would submit that there is a definite methodology to 'sorcery' - a 'science,' if you will.  It seems to me that the emprah knew exactly how psyker powers worked, and why.  Just because we don't doesn't mean that we should invoke magic and gods to explain it…..to the emprah, it was all just knowledge, pure scientific knowledge.  Witness the Imperial Truth…..

Zappiel said:

And thus did Zappiel go over 100 cp! That knock on your door will be your local Inquisitors helper coming to "help you out"! (Unless it's the Daemon herald of hope and change… It's so confusing sometimes!

Care to be a tad more constructive, rod?  Sadly, you missed the entire point……i'm sure a five year old could help you out.