++++++Considering that I frequent these boards, and /tg/, for years now, I think I have a good idea at least about the vocal part of 40k.+++++

Ah well, there is the problem. When have forums ever had anything to do with anything? I mean, isn't the consensus of the internet that what GW 'needs' to do is stop making so many Space Marines and cut their prices?

+++++and is the guiltiest, most self-indulgent pleasure available to geeks (beside perhaps True Blood, but it's a whole different kind of guilty pleasure). 40k is the undisputed king of it's genre, and both the fans and the authors know how and why.+++++

1: The vampires in True Blood have a lot of sex. Just saying.

2: I dunno. If you want 'guy in a super suit' you have things like Vanquish:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_piz5YJiSY

If you want big beefy bodybuilder heroes you have, well I quite like the look of 'Of Orcs and Men'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrmHz9PD43A

but you also get The Hulk in the Avengers, probably Darksiders etc.

If you want Military Action you have Call of Duty itself, or any of the other properties drawing from the same pot.

(I think Brink did really well with having fantasy guns with Tacticool elements:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTzI_c85yB0 )

I think 40k has always been pretty good about reinventing itself to stay current. As I see it, they currently have work to do.

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+++++it seems like you are suggesting we should completely change the background so that it's possible just so that Space Marines can get legions of fans just so that they can have sex with them+++++

Well, the internet stuff is just there to try to keep the setting relevant in a world where everyone has a smart phone. And a lot of people don't remember life before mobile phones and the 'net. Not having a net is going to start to severely limit peoples ability to draw on their own experiences when creating for 40k.

+++++Space Marines care not for fame or power and only for respect of their brothers.+++++

To an extent, that I perceive as writing yourself in to the same corner where Marines don't do anything but fight. Which isn't ideal if they have to carry an ever expanding range of merch. It is just as possible to say that every Marine is entirely convinced of their own Awesomeness, having been selected as a Space Marine and carrying the blood of God in their veins. Their hubris can then cause conflicts and get them in to trouble. Which means story.

AluminiumWolf said:

1. I wouldn't call the "range of merch" "ever expanding". GW has been doing video games and trying to do movies for ages now, and it's obvious they're plenty comfortable with where it gets them. 40k rpg isn't very groundbreaking either, seeing as Rogue Trader was much heavier on RP and story than later incarnations of 40k.

Plus, there isn't really much space for 40k to expand. It has a good niche, and mines it to the best of GW's ability. But it wouldn't do well if it tried to become really mainstream, exactly because it would have to change it's core assumptions, and alienate it's core fans, to cater to wider tastes. The biggest GW can get without entering tricky terrain is doing more (and better) videogames.

2. Space Marines already get into lots of trouble due to their hubris. The most down to earth Chapters are one small step away from becoming insufferable, holier than thou douchebags, and some of the most prominent Chapters have long since crossed that line. Still, their hubris and their trouble is of a different nature than you expect.

3. There is literally an infinite amount of good stories you can tell about brotherhood, camaraderie, honor, glory and/or piety. Identity is built upon limitations as much as, if not even more than, on possibilities. Limitations a character suffers often make a difference between a compelling character in an interesting story and a Mary Sue in a fapfic. That's why Ward gets so much flak for his Marine codices - they crossed the line and became ascended fanwank. That's why Uriel Ventris is the greatest Ultramarine ever written, while half of the Ultrasmurfs in Fall of Damnos just make me want to turn the page in hope that there'll be more Necron Lords talking (this example is entirely arbitrary and based on my latest attempts to catch up with 40k novels, but it does get the point across).

Your cry "let's open up more stories for Space Marines" is pure code for "let's make Marines more bland, generic and uninteresting".

Lancelot was fairly explicitly a mary sue. He was added to the stories by French authors, as a French knight who was better at everything than all the English knights and indeed stole King Arthur's girlfriend.

I think people are far more accepting of 'cool' characters than you might expect.

Given that everybody hates everything on the internet, how can you actually tell if no one likes Mr. Wards codexes?

+++++There is literally an infinite amount of good stories you can tell about brotherhood, camaraderie, honor, glory and/or piety+++++

I dunno. If that were true, why do they have so much trouble writing interesting stories for Space Marines.

I mean, I love Marines, but I spend much of the books thinking that this would be way cooler if it was more like Arthurian or Greek myth. Or fricking Footballers Wives. When The Great British Bake Off has more compelling characters than your novel something has gone drastically wrong!

Seriously, read The Once And Future King, and the Illiad, and then come back and tell me if you would genuinely rather read a Space Marine novel if they were not supersoldiers in the dark future with cool suits and guns and whatnot.

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Precisely how much more mainstream can you get than Games Workshop? They are the biggest thing in tabletop gaming!

40k isn't some niche product that a handful of people enjoy. It is a living, breathing entertainment property that needs to stay relevant to todays gamers. And anyway, Everyone Knows that GW relies on attracting new consumers to sustain itself, so worries about alienating the core would be horseshit even if the core wouldn't lap up Awesome Marines. Seriously guy, what makes you think GW fans are any different from their video game and blockbuster movie bretheren? No one like Warhammer because 'mainstream' entertainment is too over the top.

--

At some point in the last decade I stopped wanting video games of my favourite tabletop characters, and started wanting minis of my favourite video game characters. Tabletop isn't the driving force of what is cool any more. And I think that is a shame.

 I know I said I wasn't gonna post in this thread anymore, but I have one thing to say: most people who have actually read the texts agree that Lancelot was kind of an insufferable douche, precisely because of the qualities you described.

 Apparently he played well in France…

Anyway, I don't think there is anything to be gained by being scared of creating a cool character. James Bond, Conan, Dante from Devil May Cry… all created by people not to worried that people will think less of then for imagining cool characters.

AluminiumWolf said:

"Cool" is relative. What I think is cool, other people may laugh upon.

Also the setting already has plenty of cool characters. They are just not "your" cool. The thing is, though, that with your changes, the fluff may be just a hodgepodge of "what everyone thinks may be cool" (not that it isn't already, but if you go over the top, you may get a vomit instead of a good setting).

Either accept the setting for what it is, or go find another one. Alternatively, create one yourself from what you think is cool.

But for heavens' sake, let the 40k be. It suffers from Ward's Curse already and there is no reason to let it suffer more.

+++++Also the setting already has plenty of cool characters.+++++

I agree. I just don't think we should be to worried about accidentally creating characters as cool as some of the special characters in the codices, for intance.

+++++The thing is, though, that with your changes, the fluff may be just a hodgepodge of "what everyone thinks may be cool"+++++

40k was surely assembled out of a parts bin of cool stuff. Dune, Nemesis the Warlock, Tolkein Fantasy, Michael Moorcock etc. 40k doesn't borrow from other settings. 40k follows other settings down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their pockets for loose Awesome.

And most of what I suggest is already present.

Pretty much everyone who draws Space Marines draws them Big:-

The fluff more or less already assumes that Marines are orders of magnitude more awesome than their tabletop stats shows.

And really, to give them sex lives all you need is one Ciaphas Cain style expose exposing the dark rituals that surround the secretive Astartes chapters. (Secretive when they are not on twitter natch).

Okay maybe not the Tacticool per se, but I think that is a viable option once you accept that Marines are supposed to be world class badasses fully able to go toe to toe with other properties coolest characters, rather than some kind of quaint throw back to a time before video games.

Space Marine minis on the table top are smaller than their realistic scale because to make them bigger would make them more expensive. As is, you would need a 40mm base for a regular space marine and something in between a 60mm and a 40mm for any terminator minis.

AluminiumWolf said:

Please at least read my posts properly:

klaymen_sk said:

klaymen_sk said:

Thats… ah, er…

Shit.

--

Still I don't think the setting should stop stealing stuff now, especially since a lot of the stuff is directly derived from warhammer anyway.

Actually the problem with the minis is that everything else is too big. Space Marines are actually quite well proportioned for the scale, its just the other lines are the same size and consequently are far too big.

Anyway, that picture quite clearly shows a hive world. Poor die and a life of hard drudgery could easily explain why that woman is about 4' 8". Oh, and she should be crapping herself silly. Space Marines are the Emperor's Angels of Death. Yes, you may be glad to see the xenos scum who invaded your planet brutally murdered, but you should also be very, very glad that they aren't looking at you. They should be figures that inspire awe and dread, not "Oh, look at his bright colourful armour dear! Why don't you see if he will give you a ride on his shoulders?"

 That actually reminds me of a… I think it was a comic, but it might've been a prose story. It's set on an agri-world. The people know the stories of the Emperor's Angels, the Space Marines. One day, the planet is attacked by an Ork Waaagh! and the Black Templars are dispatched to deal with it. The story glosses over the majority of the battle itself, instead focusing on the reaction of the people to the Marines. They're terrified. These giants in armor just mowing down monsters that had demolished the PDF. The story closes with the people praying to the Emperor in thanks for their salvation, but also that they would never have to see the Angels of Death again.

It depends on who comes to their aid. Salamanders or Raven Guard actually help the citizens (mainly the RG who go long way to help evacuate all the civilians, for example). Ultramarines are fair rulers of their system, so they may not be a bad choice. Also Space Wolves may tear you a new one if you suggest hurting civilians. Those may not inspire such awe in the people.

But ultimately it depends on which chapters are actually nearby to help.

 The space marines in that story didn't mistreat the civilians in any way, it was simply the sight of Astartes doing battle was completely terrifying to the humans watching. I think there is a Dan Abnett novel which mentions "post human shock" which some troops suffer from after seeing space marines fight. Evidently they are very frightening to watch…

The Horus Heresy novels make it quite clear as well.

A Space Marine's 'natural' abilities combine to turn them in to a literal killing machine, and when faced with ordinary humans, the results will be absolute carnage. It's not out of any sadistic intent (for loyalists anyway) it's simply the ruthless application of what they were created to do to the Imperium's enemies.

One or the things I often like reading described is how they move. How something that big, and wearing armour that heavy, just shouldn't be able to move with as much speed and agility as they do. That they aren't just strong enough, but quick enough, fight ten men and kill them all relatively effortlessly.