/tinfoil hat

I've actually gained a newfound respect for mr. Ward, it seems that the contradictions are on purpose in this book, like the Imperial juggernaut is so big and so vast and so complex that you can't know the truth about the whole thing and the contradictions opens it up for you to make it in part your universe. More than ever before this version of the setting seems to cater to us t he RP crowd or at least the fluff bunnies, there are hints and half truths even in the non-fluff parts of the book.

/tinfoil hat off

As for the great companies, the foundation of the Wolf Brothers cut the chapter in half (Battle of the Fang), then they lost half a company during the siege. But this was a while ago. So that puts us at about 20000 wolves, which makes sense to me. I've always seen the companies almost as individual chapters, which puts each company strength at around 1200, give or take.

Also The Emperors Gift is Aaron Dembski-Bowden.

borithan said:

That has ALWAYS been the heavily-implied-but-unspoken origin of the Grey Knights.

UncleArkie said:

This is something that's actually been rumoured at for a long time.

And it remains to be seen whether just plugging the Marines in to that cute little (and old, and silly) chart actually really MEANS anything. Does it actually, explicitely say they take their orders from the Administratum? Cause until I see this for myself, I'm thinking it's more likely the status quo. They're technically under their purview, but they do whatever the hell they want for the most part.

Also, kinda skepticle about the Space Wolves numbering 10,000+. There are already Inquisitors and others worried about the fact that the Black Templars might have 6,000 Asartes spread around the Galaxy. With the Space Wolves being rather more concentrated, I can't see anyone turning a blind eye to a Legion strength force running around. Not that an actual Space Marine Legion would be an easy fight.

Kshatriya said:

Yep, it showed up in the Ultramarines books when Ventris and his buddy had to fight a Grey Knight, amongst other places.  So it's been in place for a while.

Still, it puts the kitbosh on the Grey Knights being derived from Loyalist Traitor Legion members such as Garro, which is a bit sad.  But does let us wonder what the heck they become now.

Blood Pact said:

That chart are from the days when Space Marines were Imperial Guard screw-ups lobotamized and brain-washed to be thoughtless killing machines. I.E. the whole primarch and space marine legion/chapter mechanics were not fully developed yet. Recruited from the Imperial Guard and under their command, Space Marines would indeed fall under the administrum. But, alas, since 3rd this whole Guard screw-up recruiting and part of Imperial Army bent was no longer used.

Ward and GW were just being lazy using an old, no-longer-appropriate chart, instead of creating a new one.

As for the puppies, those inquisitors better get crackin' convincing all the other space marine chapters the puppies and templars are deviants. Cause if they even try to move against them without doing it they'd risk all out war with all the Astartes, who don't like their authority or autonomy challenged.

Blood Pact said:

When you look at it, not really. 

For one, the Space Wolves NEVER acquiesced to Guilliman's request from the get go, and have always been one of the staunchest defenders of the Imperium.  And they've always been the sort to tell anyone who tried to mess with them where to stick it.  Yet their loyalty is unquestionably to the Emperor.  For all that irks the High Lords and Holy Ordos.

Second, when you squint a bit, each Great Company basically is a chapter with nominal fealty to the Great Wolf.  How different are they from the Ultramarines in Ultramar and having numerous successors as part of the Ultramar domain that can somehow be called upon almost at will.  Or the Blood Angels, or the Dark Angels… or even the Fists with their Feast of Blades and nominal control over the successors (Judging the Soul Drinkers).   honestly, if you ask me, the break up may be little more than name only.  With just enough autonomy to help police themselves and keep a Charismatic Traitor from completely dominating an entire legion.

They were always one of the smaller legions to begin with, for whatever reason (Probably to due with being the "Marine Executioners" legion… that's gotta take some heavy losses).  Probably took some rather brutal losses against the Thousand Sons when they attacked Prospero.

Taking all this into account there may even be a good reason they might get that nominal acceptance…  The fact that it might just be useful to have a Legion in some cases. After all, take the first battle of Armageddon, what else could resist the massed might of the World Eaters' legion but another full legion.  Mustering Legion Strengthed chapters would have taken too long.  Instead?  The only real legion around resisted them long enough for the Grey Knights to arrive and banish Angron.

Current numbers might be a bit low though, as there's been some major disasters in the Space Wolves' recentish history.  The Battle of the Fang, First Battle of Armageddon and all that's aftermath, heavy fighting in the next two battles of Armageddon and the 13th Black Crusade, all the events in the Space Wolves novels.

As a side note, it seems darned convenient for Guilliman that he basically had a bunch of Primarch-less Legions on his side.  And The Khan and Corax.  Because I bet had El'Jonson, Sanguinus, Vulkan, and Ferrus Mannus lived they never would have supported the division.  Of course, had that many extra Primarchs survived, the Empire may well have gone on much as The Emperor envisioned.

As it stands, we had a 3-2 vote on the future, mostly decided because Dorn decided not to risk a further Civil War over something so stupid.  And thus was created the Templars to hide the numbers by being spread out on Crusade.

And concern about Templars and Space Wolves or not.  They're some of the most  Loyal Groups around.  And it ain't gonna be easy to muster forces against either…  The Space Wolves resisted the Inquisition, Grey Knights, and at least one full chapter despite being spread out and trying to defend numerous Guard Regiments from being destroyed.  And had they mustered their full forces for battle instead… probably would have cleaned the clocks of said groups.  Mess with them and you've got a Legion to deal with, probably requiring 10+ chapters minimum… and the broad scheme of things, the Wolves have a reputation and could probably call on some others, Primogeniture chapter and all.  This MIGHT even include the Dark Angels.  They may not like each other, but they DO respect each other.  Kind of one of those "I'm the only one that gets to take you down!  And it's on MY terms, not the Empire's… (and if  they go after you, they've got nearly as much on me…)"

And the Templars.  Mess with them too overtly and  you'd likely need at least 10 chapters to guarantee a victory.  But then comes the issue, you mess with the sons of Dorn and suddenly you'd likely start a Civil War because it's almost certain the Imperial Fists get involved then, and probably the rest of the "Feast of Blades" successor Chapters.  So suddenly it's not just 6 chapters worth of Templars spread out, but at least 11 more full chapters.  That's -worse- than the Badaab War.  Not  to mention a Primogeniture Chapter can probably get other Marine Chapters, successor, ally, and the likes by simple reputation alone.

In either case, messing with a First Founding Legion is going to be impossible unless irrefutable proof of traitor to the Empire (Not just Codex) status can be proven.  And that ain't gonna be easy.  Because in the first case you have a First Founding involved from the get go.  In the second, it's almost a certainty the other WILL get involved to defend their Brethren.  And that proof better include "We found three of their leaders and numerous battle brothers with Marks of Chaos… here's the bodies!" and even then there will be some healthy skepticism.  As again, Marines don't like having their autonomy messed with.  And when you get a First Founding involved, suddenly any known successors are gonna have a very difficult time resisting the call to help their Founder.  And all the other First Founding Chapters are gonna look long and hard at the reasoning, because if it can happen to one, it might start happening to the rest.

So no, they might be nervous. But they know it would be tantamount to civil war to go after a First Founding, or Second Founding that's got close ties to the First yet chapter.  It WOULD make the Badaab war look like a skirmish.

herichimo said:

Thats as much fun as you wearing a tinfoil hat and ranting about how the government is covering up alien visitors. Making a chart like this take 10 - 15 minutes tops, trust me I do graphics for a living. But your statement is interesting as it seem that when ever anyone disagrees with something in the fluff or a new edition or something they just go "oh! Matt Ward must have had a finger in play, I can disregard this". If you disregard facts your not participating in the debate your cluttering it.

UncleArkie said:

And yet the self-same chart is the same one from 2nd Edition. Explain, if you will, why a 2nd edition chart based is being used in a 6th edition book. Then come back and reopen the argument about how we have to accept a 2nd edition chart based upon imperial guardsman being punished and brainwashed into becoming space marines instead of space marines being created by the Emperor into legions then broken into chapters and recruit from death worlds at their own leisure.

Or you can just accept Matt Ward has crapped out again, randomly shoving whatever he wants to wherever he wants it without actually thinking it through. Like I said current background contradicting itself - Hallmark of Matt Ward.

herichimo said:

 In this case I'm okay with it (as much as I choose to ignore most of the GK fluff he wrote - it simply doesn't exist). A lot of fluff in sixth has been brought out of 2nd ed mothballs (Squats and Imperial Beastmen, if nothing else). The administrative chart there is the point of view of the Administratum - a giant, monolithic bureacracy that can barely hold up its own weight, let alone get stuff right. The administratum considered everything to be a simple cog in the machine - a miniscule part of the infinetely complex engine that is the Imperium of Man. This is an admin group that, fairly regularly, loses entire sectors from the map. A group that has minor tasks given to family lines, who toil away at processing information that no one will ever look for, hidden away from the local sun for generations.

 If you think of the Central Bureacracy from Futurama but siphon away what little hope exists there, you're probably looking at an organisation that could produce that chart without seeing anything wrong with it.

Well someone else has made a better reply about the chart than I was thinking. But let me just say that people are far too quick to jump to conclusions when it comes to Ward's tenure. Such as the alluded to response earlier, about the Grey Knights' origins. A different poster I know, but it's another example of someone jumping right to, "Matt Ward did this, so it sucks".

Dulahan said:

You make an excellent arguement. I'd never really considered it in those terms before. I like it. :)

BTs have 6000 marines across the galaxy?

Ha…I think the numbers are closer to 15,000+.

I'm fine with Space Wolves having over 10,000. It'd be harder for me to suspend disbelief if they only had like 1200 total.

Though it's not as if the Dark Angels and Ultramarines aren't effectively legions in some ways, given how much power/authority those First Foundings of those Legions wield over their successors.

If I remember correctly from the old Index Astartes articles and books the BT were rumored around 10k, but its been a loooong time since I've read those. Personally as someone who has been playing Wolves since RT I kinda like the idea of the 2nd ed numbers but then again I could be completely biased. :)

In fairness, not only are the BT in a constant state of massive recruitment wherever they go, but the very nature of their crusade means that if THEY know how many BT marines there are, I'd be surprised.

THey're below Legion strength, more than that… who knows?

While I'm ashamed to admit to a lack of fluff knowledge, is anyone familiar with any other canon perma-crusade 'chapters' like the BT? If anyone says Astral Claws I shall give them a smack. They don't count.

Marines Errant used to be a perma-crusade "chapter". I think the BT were the first time there was a reference anywhere to actual numbers though. I certainley cant recall anything before that.

You gotta figure being a crusade chapter and well.. being BT that they have a pretty damned high turnover ratio as well.

If the BT in my group is anything to go by, they sure do. Frankly, I wouldn't trust that guy near a balcony, or with basic power tools. It's almost like he's attempting to make natural selection itself cry. That character has the same sense of self preservation as a depressed lemming in a store called Razors'r'Us. And not once has anyone managed to call him out for NOT acting like a Black Templar.