My take on it is that, since some Space Marines have historically been seduced by the lure of Slaanesh, they are not inherently asexual, even thought they are normally much too disciplined to display interest in sex. So, I agree with them not starting with chem-geld.

AluminiumWolf said:

I forgive you, Wolf. I probably should have searched the forum first!

And good point about the forum fodder!

AluminiumWolf said:

Point.

AluminiumWolf said:

Fair point - I guess to my mind, it seemed odd that after that long period of not dealing with the… sticker aspects of human interaction, a Space Marine roleplaying game is, even for one paragraph, addressing physical desire directly.

I probably wouldn't have even given it thought myself had I not seen that Talent right there on the page.

Actually, take that back, I kind of had when thinking about Female Space Marines, but that's a whole 'nother thread (which, believe it or not, ties into my thinking about Female Transformers).

In essence, I think there is probably a Secret Setting Bible somewhere at GW HQ that says Marines do not experience sexual desire. And there is a note in said bible that you may never, ever, ever, say this out loud.

For a variety of reasons, I think this is non-optimal. For a start, since it is effectively a secret you can never do anything with it or explore it. For a second, love and lust are MASSIVE drivers for what people do, and Marines need all the agency they can get (something for a Marine to desire that doesn't involve killing things). For a third, Ciaphas Cain showed how sex has a place even if 40k, and Dan Simmonds Illium/Olympos and Larry Niven's seminal Man of Steel Woman of Kleenex essay ( http://www.rawbw.com/~svw/superman.html ) and the movie Hancock showed there was entertainment value in the effects of a Marines enhance physique on. Stuff.

I mean, we could be doing Game of Thrones in space!

 Please turn to page 20 of Codex: Space Wolves.

'The Lost Company of Svengar the Red' tells us of a Great Company of Space Wolves. They were never seen again, having fought bravely, after Svengar made 'a casual pass at one of their women'.

If that isn't sexual desire…

A few more thoughts.

Slaanesh can seduce by means other than sex. Or physically change marines so they *can* feel sexual desire.

I think the removal/usurpation of the sex drive is one of the ways that is overlooked in how space marines are that much different to their human roots. The sex drive is a massive motivator in human behaviour and a personality without it is very different.

Space wolves are a weird not quite exception. I can't recall post-change marines having actual intercourse but lots of references to passes etc. That could be a cultural thing, where space wolves feel the need to prove that they're still all men even if they don't actually feel the urge to do anything with women.

 Space Wolves especially being neutered makes their whole MO more than a little bit pathetic.

Well Space Wolves are kind of an exception to the rules.  They're well known as being radical alcoholics who defy authority and the dictates of the Codex Astartes.  They'd probably been declared Excommunicate Traitoris if it wasn't for their unquestionable loyalty to the Emperor and be so damn good at destroying anyone including other Space Marines.  Then again having a suped up Dreadnaught who has a higher kill count than entire Space Marine companies and  been kicking ass since Warhammer 32k doesn't hurt either.

There are chapters with history in the fluff of being lusty (mostly Space Wolves). I wouldn't require it and I certainly wouldn't give them the full bonus coming with Chem Geld. Space Marines are still subject to flattery and the like. And if you want to play an SM who does explore his baser impulses, that could make an interesting story. It should be something that a player could opt into, not something forced on them from the start.

 I suspect people are going to be less happy about being forced in to playing a limp-dicked gelding than a functional man…

Exactly. If you opt into it with taking the Talent, fine. But being forced to is really off-putting and it's not like gamers are the most, uh, understanding subculture when it comes to being emasculated/marginalized.

AluminiumWolf said:

Really? I realize there are alot of strong feelings on both sides of this particular debate, but I ask you to take a step back from the conversation itself to look at the substance of this particular statement. You think there is some kind of 'bible' at GW with a list of commandments a la the Torah? Please let me know by popular insult if I'm the only person who thinks this is a ridiculous claim.

I propose we look instead at the idea that GW makes Warhammer 40,000 with the intent to make money. To make money from it they need to sell products related to it, such as miniatures, rule books, novels, etc. The tabletop game itself says it's recommended for ages 12 and up, but since it is a game, realistically kids younger than that will be interested. In order to maintain the 12+ rating, inclusion of sexual content would not be a viable option. If sex were to be included, they would be obligated to put all kinds of warnings and restrictions on the covers and packaging, then they could only sell it in certain sections or in certain stores (in the U.S. anyway). Then it would no longer have a reputation of being a game of little plastic men shooting each other and become more about sex.

Maybe my logic doesn't follow exactly or there may be things I overlooked, which I am open to constructive criticism, but I think it's much more likley that for the last 25 years it's been more a factor of 'let's keep the game clean, and focused on grimdark people killing each other mercilessly.' and less of 'lets get into the nitty gritty details of ordinary life'. Plus, the sex genie will never get back in the bottle, just like puberty it's a one way door. In conclusion, I think it's not a situation of where people have kicked SM sexuality around in meeting rooms and brainstorming sessions and saying they don't want to offend people by saying they are or aren't impotent or castrated or just so geeked out on steroids they can't feel anything below the tree trunk that serves as their neck. I think it's a business decision to keep the game accessible to the widest age group possible, in order to get the most money as possible.

Or maybe I'm wrong.

Lionus said:

I think there has to exist, entirely in the heads of GWs commissioning people or not, a directive that says you may not show a Marine kissing anyone. AT THE SAME TIME you are not allowed to explicitly confirm that Marines are impotent. You can sorta hint at it a bit, but never come out and say it.

As an exercise, try to get someone who has written on the Deathwatch line to comment on Marine sexuality.

--

But basically no one in 40k had sex before Ciaphas Cain, and Marines haven't caught up with the revolution yet.

AluminiumWolf said:

Incorrect, both Gaunt (in Necropolis, implied at the time, confirmed later), and the Inquisitor & Callidus assassin from the Inquistion Trilogy (blatant in at least 2 of the books in the trilogy) have sex.  I'm fairly sure Necropolis is before Cain's novels start, don't quote me on it, I am 100% sure the Inquisition war trilogy was before it.

Inquisition War Trilogy also has the Imperial Fist acknowledge that the Callidus Assassin is attractive, but suppresses any desire through discipline.

William Kings space wolves in the Wolfguard are blatantly in love with their charge, the navigator (each member to their own degree

Some 40k Authors handle sexuality as a topic, some avoid it entirely.  The same will be said for many 40k RPG games, some GMs will include it, others will avoid it.  

On a final note, specifically to topic, at no point, in no codex is there any description of ANY of their implanted organs chemically or physically neutering them. Considering how regimented a space marine's life is, it may have never actually occurred to do this.  Most space marines don't have TIME to fraternize with the opposite sex, let alone the opportunity.    

Lastly, in some incredibly OLD Index Astartes bits from WD (before some wicked retconn butchery), Salamanders Chapter Marines were rotated in small numbers back to Nocturne, to have families and help run the settlements they came from.