Atheosis said:

The Emperor hasn't made any complaints about it in the last 10,000 years.

ItsUncertainWho said >>>

You seem to be forgetting the basis for 40K is that God, the God Emperor of Mankind (Bob), created the Space Marines. By that very fundamental, undeniable truth of 40K, space marines are man made better, divine, by Bob. They are less than gods themselves but so much more than man as to be approaching the divine.

Now that you have pointed out the error of my ways, I shall endeavour to reform...

... Not.

Let's just face it, I could say that the celery in my salad is "God" and, therefore, that my salad is divine.  It doesn't make it "fact," though, it just makes it a part of a mythological system--a system of belief.  Forgive my whimsy, but that particular argument reminds me of this: 

Monty Python and the Holy Grail had this to say on the topic >>>

ARTHUR: The Lady of the Lake,
[angels sing]
her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur
from the bosom of the water signifying by Divine Providence that I,
Arthur, was to carry Excalibur.
[singing stops]
That is why I am your king!

DENNIS: Listen strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power
derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical
aquatic ceremony.

ARTHUR: Be quiet!

DENNIS: Well you can't expect to wield supreme executive power
just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!

ARTHUR: Shut up!

DENNIS: I mean, if I went around sayin' I was an empereror just
because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me they'd
put me away!

Thus, arguing that just because someone that is claimed (by others) to be a "god," whatever that might mean, definitively makes the Space Marines "demi-gods" is... is... I'm sorry, about the only thing that springs to mind is "laughable."  

That the people of the Imperium might them in that way is slightly more believable, but for vanilla 40k then the chances are that this very specific information is going to be beyond their sphere of knowledge.  Thus, the "Angels of Death," the harbingers of the Emperor's Wrath that ride the Emperor's steed, the Thunderhawk, into their acts of retribution against the unrighteous.

ItsUncertainWho said >>>

Primarchs would be equatable to gods, as they were created wholly by Bob and were considered his sons and equals.

Beyond the repeated conflation of mythology and religious beliefs for fact, while they might have been considered his sons, not even they considered themselves to be his equal.

ItsUncertainWho said >>>

I think people seem to be taking an odd view of the term demigod.

I like to think of it as a literal one. YMATV.

ItsUncertainWho said >>>

I also find it interesting that you think the Batman/Superman analogy failed. I thought it was quite accurate and easily understandable.  

Interest away.  I would just avoid mention to superheroes.  It feeds too much into the mythology and the common conflationarguableof Marines that leads to the "power creep" that is a part of the history of interpretation of Space Marines.  (And which might be at the heart of the Team Mode.)

Kage

Figure I'll chime in again as best possible with my NDA:

I actually was a game master in one of the play test groups. I can't speak on a lot of specifics, but the Solo Mode/Squad Mode abilities along with Cohesion is something that we focused on from the start of the play test to help ensure it was a fun mechanic. Having actually played some games, I can say that they are not abilities that you will probably use in every encounter, but they are there for imaginative players and can definitely make or break an encounter if used right. For those that are concerned, they in no way replace combat, rather they give your group simply more options. 

Kage2020 said:

Maybe, but whether or not the Emperor is a god within the context of the setting is subject to more than just the opinion of the masses; afterall, many things are determined to be 'gods' within the 40k universe, from the C'Tan, to some interpretations of the Old Ones, to warp-borne incarnate pseudo-intellects formed from coalescing emotions. Determining whether or not those things are gods is more than simply a matter of opinion on the parts of their believers.

Indeed, given the nature of the Warp, belief in its own right may be sufficient to lend credence to claims of divinity. The ruinous powers come as much from belief as they do from stray emotion - indeed, it might be suggested that the focussed emotion of knowing belief is more potent than unfocussed thought (a berserker rage devoted specifically to Khorne grants the Lord of Skulls far more power than one not specifically devoted to Khorne) - so are they gods because they are worshipped, or are they worshipped because they are gods?

By the same token, over the last ten thousand years, untold numbers of human beings have lived lives devoted to serving and worshipping the Emperor of Mankind, praying to him for protection, strength, guidance and all manner of other things, because they have been raised to think of him as a god. The Orks know that humanity worships the Emperor, understanding him to be the war-god of mankind, and belief that Titans are made in the Emperor's image just as Gargants are made in the image of the Orks' own violent deities. By merit of that belief in the Emperor's divinity, is the Emperor made divine?

If so, then the Astartes, through their genetic links to the Emperor (each bearing a fragment of the genetic legacies of their Primarch, who in turn were wrought from the genetics of the Emperor) are literal demigods...

This does, to an extent, depend on whether or not you accept the 40k universe as being essentially fantasy with superficial sci-fi trappings...

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Which is in and of itself buying into the mythology.  From an in-universe perspective one could accept the label, as pointed out in the previous postsome (most?) believe that the Emperor is a god, so "demi-god" being applied to the Space Marines has more traction.  Stating it as an undeniable fact, though?  Less traction.

Kage

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Yup. 40K is fantasy with guns and space ships. I'll try to find the link but I read a great article with Rick P. and some others where they talk about putting out the first 40k book. At the time "nobody bought sci-fi" so they sold the idea as fantasy in space. So from the very start that was kind of the intent. I think its one founding idea that really helped shape 40K into what it is and has always made the universe different enough. Granted, some people really love sci-fi and are turned off by things like the over-sized marine shoulder pads, questionable technology ideas, etc. but I know for me this has always been a draw to the system.

I think it would be a mistaken assumption to work with the principle that even those that "cry out" for a tad more rationality are unaware of the origins or nature of the 40k universe.  As someone who is want to look at the 40k universe through a sci-fi lens, I'm fully aware that the universe makes far more sense when you remove the sci-fi elements and think of things as simple, basic Tolkien-esque medieval fantasy.  It has far more robusticity seen in that context than it does in its other purported category of "sci-fi."  Amusingly, as a tongue-in-cheek reference, I once started writing up some of the basic concepts of "40kFantasy," where those unique (well, sort of unique) elements of the 40k universe were turned back into traditional "Dungeon Fantasy" fantasy.  Thus, the Emperor became a Liche/Necromancer type chap, the Space Marines were various Orders of Knights that were magically enhanced by the techno-sorcerers of the Guild Mechanicum, etc. etc.  It was fun and a rather interesting little game world(s).

When it comes to 40k, though, I mentioned a "lens of sci-fi."  All this does, for me, is make the game into "sci-fantasy"you recognise the fun craziness as fantasy, but this doesn't mean that you have Eldar with fish swimming around their necks because you saw something similar in Merlin.  (Well, you can if you want, but one imagines that it needs a certain amount of explanation within the context of the setting.)

Big pauldrons?  Accepting the craziness of the 40k universe, I personally made these a special type of protective gadget that allowed the "weakening" of powered armour slightly so that it becomes more vulnerable than those from a generic "sci-fi" setting.  Now they have these cool pads that, with the appropriate combat techniques/stances (defensive manoeuvres or whatever) they can interject the pad and get the benefits of an armour multiplier (or damage reducer, depending on whether your a glass half full or half empty person).  It's a tad on the silly side, but I'm sure many might appreciate the imagery of a Marine moving through a barrage of fire, pauldrons acting like shields and looking for all intents and purposes like the scene from Sherlock Holmes (the recent film) where explosions are throwing debris all over the place.  Then, at the end of it, they bring it with the chainswords and bolt pistols.

(And, of course, different Chapters have different combat techniques to either enhance or temper this kind of craziness.)

For me, the primary difference is that the whole shoulder pauldron is individualised to the Marine and supported by the 'fluff' without reference to "Team Awesome" powers.  If you wanted to borrow from "Team Awesome" powers, then perhaps look to things like the "Targetting Web" of the Mentor Legion?

Ack, I realise that this is at least partially hypocritical.  I define for my interpretation of Marines "heroic powers" that are somehow associated with the suit as a transcendent qualities that survive down through the ages to create a lineage and tradition that ties the Marine PC directly to their Chapter and its ideals.  Some might argue that it is basically "Solo Mode," and all that "heroic power/glorious heritage" nonsense being just another variation of "Team Mode."  Perhaps it is.  "Team Mode" as described just struck me as... off.  Combat spacing as a resource-limited power?  Hang on, these are the elite warriors of the Imperium and yet their ability to work coherently as an effective combat team is limited by GM writ?

Of course, with that said, I recognise that if you're working with "knightly orders" that have such vastly different combat doctrines (errr) then, yeah... Errr.  Tempers might fray, a defeat might bring into question the authority of the squad leader, etc.

And then we're full circle with regards to necessity, and one of the reasons that I'm willing to wait to see other examples of Team Mode to see how it works out, the implications, etc.  Guess some of us are going to have to wait a couple of months to see how it all meshes together.

Kage