Quicksilver said >>>

I feel like I could boil down half of the above arguments to "Do RPGs need rules?" 

I'm not sure that it's the same thing, since the question of necessity also comes along implicitly with the question of whether they improve the roleplaying experience or not.  Again, though, this comes down to the whole "ROLEPLAYING game" or "roleplaying GAME" as Luddite on another forum puts it.  As it stands, Team Mode sounds like the latter.

Of course, if rpG is what you want, then great.  I could see why the gamist elements of Cohesion and "Team Awesome Powers" would appeal and that's great.  One might imagine that they would help with the immersion into the game, just like, say, the additional dedicated crunch of Space Hulk likely does there.

Quicksilver said >>>

And personally, I'm glad that FFG is putting the time and effort into making Deathwatch a game specifically designed to play as a squad of Marines, rather than just porting over Dark Heresy with different starting equipment.

Errr... It's the same system, just with even more crunch.

Quicksilver said >>>

...but because everyone insists on comparing the two on some assumption that an RPG should be nothing like a video game.

I presume that's not a reference to me, since I have stated numerously that drawing some inspiration from them can increase the flavour of a Marine-specific game.  With that said, my bias is for the "ROLEPLAYING game," or RPg.  In that instance, "Team Awesome Powers" just seem unnecessary to the "fun" of the RP and, in some instances, create an additional barrier to the RP experience insofar as it changes the focus of the game.

Kage

I think that Cohesion is more to represent how long the very distinct training and personalities of each SM can stand to go against their own Chapters “proper” way of fighting. How long can a Space Wolf stand to fight with the restraint and control of an Ultramarine? How long can a Blood Angel keep the red thirst in check when he is trying to match the ferocity of a Space Wolf?

The thing to remember is that Deathwatch is an elite organization composed of hand picked veteran space marines. So from the get go, the characters should be, to borrow from Kage, out-ubering the line marines from their chapters. Their Deathwatch training should make them more uber than a standard marine from their chapter.

Kage2020:
It seems to buff Space Marines up beyond where they're already buffed to no end for the sake of "uber coolness."  Can you imagine the amount of buffing that is going to go on for Grey Knights?  Or, god forbid, Adeptus Custodes? 

That's the point of Deathwatch. They are the top tier marines of all the Astartes chapters. As for Grey Knights, they are a Chapter that should be stupid powerful. A Grey Knight should be able to take down a greater daemon by himself. It'll be a slobber-knocker, but he should be able to do it. As for Custodes, IMO, they should just never be stated. They should just remain a 14' tall win button. As in they win, you don't.

Think of it this way: A Deathwatch marine is like Batman. A Grey Knight is Superman. They are on par with each other in how awesome they are, but they are by no means equal.
 

ItsUncertainWho said:

A single Grey Knight should definitely not be able to take a greater daemon by himself...

Atheosis said:

yet a primaris psyker from Ascension can one power a greater demon of Tzeentch? ......according to fluff for grey knights A Ordo Mallues Inq and a team of 5 to 6 grey knight termies held off a demon incursion on a planet....A PLANET....

so yes kage is does come down to a Power ideal...how much is too much??

What are fans going to want from playing such a more powerful role in the 40k verse? And by giving them that power is it tipping the scales way to much?

Something else that people need to understand is that Deathwatch is a special kill team usually sent in to uncover xenos activity or attempt to put a stop to xenos plots of invasion...should the deathwatch fail that is when the full might of the SMs are usually called in from their chapters.

RedSkull said:

Ascension is retarded.  Please leave that joke of a game system out of this.  And what Grey Knights fluff are you referring to exactly?  As far as I'm aware Grey Knights usually have to deploy in mass to take on a full daemonic incursion, and often fail.  They're badass, but not quite as badass as you're saying they are.

The fluff I refrence comes from the codex Demon hunters for the table top...If i can recall right there is a short story or something that talks about a small group being Epic.

And not to spark an argument but I believe that some people will be mixing the ideas of ascension into this game

ItsUncertainWho said >>>

I think that Cohesion is more to represent how long the very distinct training and personalities of each SM can stand to go against their own Chapters “proper” way of fighting. How long can a Space Wolf stand to fight with the restraint and control of an Ultramarine? How long can a Blood Angel keep the red thirst in check when he is trying to match the ferocity of a Space Wolf?

Darned good counter-argument.  My answer to that would be "WP test" against specific disadvantages/traits, which wouldn't necessarily require the additional crunch.  At the same time, darned good argument.

ItsUncertainWho said >>>

That's the point of Deathwatch. They are the top tier marines of all the Astartes chapters. As for Grey Knights, they are a Chapter that should be stupid powerful. A Grey Knight should be able to take down a greater daemon by himself. It'll be a slobber-knocker, but he should be able to do it. As for Custodes, IMO, they should just never be stated. They should just remain a 14' tall win button. As in they win, you don't.

I think it quite clearly comes down to a difference in interpretations of what a Marine is, which has always been the issue of Marines.  Some people see them as bionetically enhanced humans in powered armour, while others view them as demigods.  Such was ever going to be an issue with an Space Marine RPG and probably one part of the reason that it was always going to be contentious.

So, Deathwatch RPG is 40k Supers?  Or at least it should be in your opinion?

Atheosis said >>>

A single Grey Knight should definitely not be able to take a greater daemon by himself...

I would tend to agree with that, but then again I don't view them as demigod superheroes. 

RedSkull said >>>

...according to fluff for grey knights A Ordo Mallues Inq and a team of 5 to 6 grey knight termies held off a demon incursion on a planet....A PLANET....

One has always kind of hoped that even the publishers knew that the material is a bit on the cack side (English definition of "cack" there, not the Matt Damon Boston accent one), but it keeps on selling so they're not going to be looking a gift-horse in the mouth.  If this is truly how awesome the Marines of the Deathwatch are meant to be then... Well, 40k has definitely come along way since its humble origins.

Kage

RedSkull said:

I'm well aware of that.  That, combined with the abysmal DDs, is why I have little hope for DW.

RedSkull said:

I can't seem to find any such story.

Atheosis
Read the Grey Knight omnibus. It kinda sucks but it will back my argument. All Grey Knights do is train to hunt and kill Daemons. They are warded in mind, body, and armor. Armed with Psycannons, Nemesis force weapons, psychic powers, and all the normal space marine goodies.

Kage2020
I never said Deathwatch was 40K supers, you apparently missed the analogy. I also don't ascribe to the demigod theory but I do see them as significantly more capable than any human ever could be without massive augmentation. I equated space marines to Batman in my analogy. Batman is the peak of human perfection physically and mentally but is a non-powered hero who is still an equal to Superman, up to a point. Grey Knights are space marines, but then they get psyker powers also. They are equal, but they are better, significantly better.

Actually, demigod would be an accurate term to describe a space marine. Since a demigod is a human who is basically a level of magnitude greater than normal, it's actually quite an apt description. I don't believe they are unstoppable, but for lack of a better descriptor they are demigods. I seem to have reversed my own ideas a bit. Space Marines are basically superheros when compared to a normal man. So I guess I do expect Deathwatch to be a bit over the top when compared to DH or RT.

demigod
1 : a mythological being with more power than a mortal but less than a god
2 : a person so outstanding as to seem to approach the divine <the demigods of jazz>

A grey knight grand master might be able to take on a greater daemon, but a normal one won't. It took 100 Grey Knight terminators to defeat Angron and his Bloodthirsters and only ~8 I think survived the encounter.

Grey Knights are great, but they are still space marines. A single trooper won't be able to defeat a greater daemon one on one.

Hellebore

ItsUncertainWho said:

I know all about the Grey Knights.  I actually read those books a long time ago, and I remember nothing in them that would support your statement.  A solitary Grey Knight could not kill a Greater Daemon.  As Hellebore says, maybe a Grand Master could pull it off, though I would heavily emphasize the 'maybe' there.  Seriously what you're saying is just plain wrong.

ItsUncertainWho said >>>

I never said Deathwatch was 40K supers, you apparently missed the analogy.

Well, it would certainly one way of looking at it.  One might also look back on some of the previous posts and look at the flavour of the arguments and see it as an interpretation of the argument within the context of other points.  One might also suggest that if you're going to use an analogy, make sure that it is concise and appropriate since people will read associated and parallel information off of it.

Or, at least, it's something to think about.

ItsUncertainWho said >>>

I also don't ascribe to the demigod theory but I do see them as significantly more capable than any human ever could be without massive augmentation.

So, physically superior, enhanced technology, and good training.  Fair enough.  My point was merely that just because they have this doesn't mean that they are demi-gods.  That you don't view them as such either is just another point.

ItsUncertainWho said >>>

I equated space marines to Batman in my analogy. Batman is the peak of human perfection physically and mentally but is a non-powered hero who is still an equal to Superman, up to a point.

This is where the analogy fails on a number of different levels since, of course, its hard to demand that people see the same relationships as another.

ItsUncertainWho said >>>

Actually, demigod would be an accurate term to describe a space marine.

On a mythological standpoint, perhaps.  One could equally say "post human" without the divine references, which would perhaps be a more accurate term.

ItsUncertainWho said>>>

demigod

1 : a mythological being with more power than a mortal but less than a god
2 : a person so outstanding as to seem to approach the divine <the demigods of jazz>

Good definitions to show how it is either in inaccurate terms, or relies upon referencing mythology. 

Kage

Kage2020

You seem to be forgetting the basis for 40K is that God, the God Emperor of Mankind (Bob), created the Space Marines. By that very fundamental, undeniable truth of 40K, space marines are man made better, divine, by Bob. They are less than gods themselves but so much more than man as to be approaching the divine.

Primarchs would be equatable to gods, as they were created wholly by Bob and were considered his sons and equals. They were never human, by any stretch of the imagination. Men were made greater by taking a part of a god, their Primarchs gene seed, and combining it with their own. Thus a demigod space marine is born.

I think people seem to be taking an odd view of the term demigod. 

I also find it interesting that you think the Batman/Superman analogy failed. I thought it was quite accurate and easily understandable. 

ItsUncertainWho said:

Except that the Emperor expressly forbid people from viewing him as a god, and the majority still Space Marines continue that tradition...