Let me rephrase my position.  It may not be impossible for players to play 40k aliens properly.  90+% of players lack the capacity to do so however.  It reminds me of Chaotic Neutral back in D&D.  I ended up banning the alignment because one in twenty players had a clue how to play it correctly.  The rest just played the alignment like they were crazy.  I'm just skeptical that people are going to do much with 40k alien characters. 

Oh and by the way the other issue I see is that as soon as a player starts up a Xenos character they create a real headache for the rest of the party.  A Xenos party member is basically a death warrant on everyone else's head if he/she/it is ever discovered.  On top of that the character is basically precluded from interacting within Imperial borders for obvious reasons.

Yep, I really don't care for Xenos PCs in 40k Roleplay.

Atheosis said:

Well, then, you're not obliged to use them; all FFG are providing is the option. Inquisitorial stormtroopers will not hold you at gunpoint and force you to include Xenos PCs, nor is there any factor that will override a GM's perogative to disallow them.

I mean, I wrote one of them, and I'm still not allowing Xenos PCs in my forthcoming campaign.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

True enough.

As was going to ask what "playing correctly" meant, since it seems to be an obvious point of contention (i.e. what is correctly?), but not sure whether it would be productive or not.  In which case I shall leave it at that rather than a longer post and, if it wouldn't be productive, then don't bother answering.  

Kage

Kage2020 said:

Obviously it's all relative, but to me "correctly" means playing the alien species from it's perspective rather than the perspective of a human.  Look at the Eldar for instance.  They experience reality in a very different way than humans.  Their senses are much more sensitive and their emotions are far more intense.  They do not use the same type of logic humans do, and so their actions are often incomprehensible to humans.  They are arrogant and haughty, but not in the way that D&D elves are.  By that I mean they really are superior to humans and act accordingly.  On top of that, they are inherently psychic, so they aren't going to be as reliant on the gross senses to understand their world. 

In essence, a player needs to capture all of that to play an Eldar character correctly.  Similarly the rules need to reflect all of the above or it won't really work.  I just don't see it happening.  They're just going to end up being played as space elves, which they categorically aren't based on the lore.

I might have to continue this discussion with you in an alternate venue, Atheosis.  I've got a sneaking suspicion that you're going to have some fascinating perspectives, but I also believe that we're rapidly going to reach a crunch point from the perspective of this forum were discussion isn't going to be constructive.  At the same time, I think that some of the notes that I have for the Eldar might be of interest to you.  (And to be fair I say "Eldar" since it's the only real race that I've concentrated on... :D)

Kage

Atheosis said:

But really, you don't need to precisely and completely reflect all of it - you only need to appear as if you are. You make a concession to humanity (acknowledge that the character percieves existence in a different context to the player) and fake the differences.

I have thought about these things, and while the end result is obviously limted by space (not that limited - there's still a reasonable word-count devoted to the matter), I think I've produced something that goes into enough detail to at least inform someone wanting to play a [Censored by the Inquisition].

The new Rogue Trader setting book will contain 2 Xenos Careers, so yes, FFG is going to include alien PCs. 

and, as to the arguement against Xenos pcs being, you're not an alien, you're a human and can only think like a human, this is often said about Space Marines as well, as they are categorically and mentally, not really human anymore.  most of the more recent space marine novels coming out of black library have more than one marine, and more than one chapter that view themselves as space marine, and humans as... humans.  This also used to be the arguement as to why Black Library didn't take submissions of books from an alien's perspective, originally.  That barrier has been broken and that is no longer the case.  Sadly, the only truely "alien" mindsets that are portrayed as being beyond human comprehension (and thus, our comprehension), are tyranids, and necrons.  Orks live to fight, you can find tribes of them mimicing human tendencies (Blood Axes leap to mind, but Bad Moons aren't far behind), they are a race that embodies the statement Might Makes Right... this... really isn't that hard to roleplay.  Eldar have human emotions, everything is on a simply, larger, more intense scale, but the base is the same, and add to that, as a race, they want 2 things, survival, and to regain what they've lost.  This is a difference of scope and scale, but not a difference that is insurmountable or un-roleplayable.  One might even consider playing an Eldar as something kin to the opposite of playing a Tech-Priest (intense emotion versus lack there of.)  I'm only refering to stereotypes mind you, player characters obviously break the mold to bits, they are special and not normally indicative of their species. 

Sadly, earlier, someone commented that aliens in Warhammer 40k are not Star Trek aliens (ala, not humans with funny things on their heads and that's the difference), that's... really not the case.  It's pretty clear that Eldar are a mix of Tolkien Elves & Vulcans... and vulcans were pretty much space Tolkien elves anyway.  Tau are pretty easy to follow too, the young race is a caste system of people working towards a greater good, their own agendas aren't really, well, alien.  Orks are orcs from any setting, and I see no issue roleplaying them here than in a D&D setting.  Same with [Deleted by the Inquisition of Gamesworkshop], I mean, really, dwarves in space, that's all they ever were ;) 

These are the races you're most likely to come across as PCable, most of the others are ACTUALLY alien in thought and design (Yu'Vath crazy crystal things, Necron terminators though GW may be changnig this dynamic thanks to Matt Ward (may he die in a fire... really, blood angels teaming up with NECRONS to fight Tyranids... and then the BA's and Necrons call a truce and walk away, REALLY!?!?... *cough* sorry, I feel better now), Tyranid aliens and thier hive mind, Enslavers, etc.  

Are they easy to roleplay properly, no, but technically,playing an elf correctly rather than a pointy eared dextrous human isn't easy either.   

just my 2 thrones on the whole thing with the added benefit of a clear answer now that FFG is actually doing it heh

Perhaps just working with the premise that the "alien races" are crafted and created by humans is indicative of something?  It all comes down to suspension of disbelief, taking on a role that feels "not human" (or not within the experience of the individual, at least) or, as NH would have it, "faking it."  Humanity encompasses things that are far more odder than anything that Games Workshop has written about.

Kage

The way I see it I'm grateful for the rules, as while I have no desire to play an Alien PC or see an entire party of PC's come up with convoluted reason after convoluted reason for their loyal servants of the God-Emperor failing to gun it down at the first opportunity, a Xenos PC Template would provide useful guidelines for building your own alien antagonists of said species, which is good to have.

Personally, I have almost no faith in your average PC's ability to credibly portray a Xenos, and would honestly prefer not to have alien PC's in my games. I know for a fact that all of my GM's would deny a request to play an Xenos PC in a party of Imperials and tell you to stop being so silly, anyway. This is Warhammer 40,000, the Xenos does not think like us, it is not our friend, nor does it want to "get along" with the Imperium. While it's true that Rogue Traders and Inquisitors can legally retain the services of Xenos that have not been classified Xenos Horribilus by the Inquisition, this is very rare and a sure sign of corruption in the eyes of one's peers. and you better believe that your nonhuman buddy will bring the most dire of consequences upon your characters.

At the end of the day, the rules will be there, use them if you want, but I doubt that I ever will!

Is it sad that I could see the ability to be playing a team of Orks as a great drinking/drunk game? I mean, it's not THAT hard to play a group of Orks. Ya jest gotta go 'round crumpin stuff.

Asraiel said >>>

...or see an entire party of PC's come up with convoluted reason after convoluted reason for their loyal servants of the God-Emperor failing to gun it down at the first opportunity...

This is one of the reasons that I sometimes felt that people don't really "get" the Imperial mind set because of the lack of cultural details, but rather end up with what has always struck me as "bullet-point-style" approaches"fear the mutant, purge the heretic, burn the xenos," or however that particular phrase goes.  Regardless of how many questions that are necessarily answered with "every world is different," or novels that show there is a seedyor arguably pragmaticunderbelly to the Imperium, it sometimes seems that the average Dark Heresy player is going to blow a xenos away without a thought.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with that, I just personally see little wrong with playing a 40k Imperium human and playing, say, a contextually well-described alien.  I get about as much suspension of disbelief from either of them, at least in many cases.

Then again, unless we're dealing with all-alien games, I have a tendency of viewing aliens as "bit part players," something to be introduced on a scenario-by-scenario basis, and not something that should be introduced because there are rules for them.  Of course, I view the Adeptus Astartes in the same way, perhaps a number of the Ascension careers, and so forth.  For me?  It depends on the focus of the game.  Can I envisage the point at which an alien PC could be introduced into an Imperial campaign?  Yes, numerous ones.  Keeping them involved in a continuous campaign, rather than with episodic returns?  Not so much.

For a game focused on the alien race(s) in question?  That's something else entirely.  The greater the number of races that you introduce the greater the contrivance required, but the same still remains for 40k humans as wellthey also don't think like you (it's just something that is often swept under the rug, or at least as far as I can see).

Azraiel said >>>

...and would honestly prefer not to have alien PC's in my games... 

Kage

Kage2020 said:

I think it's important to remember that there's a lot of social engineering that goes into Imperial xenphobia.  The only kind of people that aren't going to simply kill xenos upon first contact are those who have transcended such programming (for whatever reason).  Such individuals are going to be pretty rare in most cases.  Of course nothing is universal when it comes to Imperial worlds so exceptions are going to happen.  That said, having a long term alien as a party member seems rather far-fetched for many reasons (as you said).

Atheosis said:

Which gets back to painting the Imperium with a single brush when it is convenient to do so.  Space travel is rare, except when it's not.  Mutants are purged, except when they are not.  Technology is misunderstood... except when it's not.

Seems to come down to the "speed of plot?"

Kage

Kage2020 said:

Yes the guiding rule of 40k is narrative convenience.