I think I'll stick with the un-retconned older canon then, as it makes less sense imo to have multiple Hive Fleets trooping around. The quote from the Tyranid Codex I put in my last post made it clear there were (generally) thought to be no surviving Tyranids from Behemoth after Macragge, that's what I'm going to stick with.

Tbh, Tyranids don't strike me as a particularly desirable opponent for pcs in an rpg anyway. 

The Tyranids always suffer from this. One of my PCs is a 'Nids player on the tabletop and inexplicably want's 'Nids about (My little corner of the Imperium is on the Coreward end of Ultima Segmentum, so could be affected by Kraken, but not Behemoth). I've read all the background concerning it many a tim - like it or not, it's not until Kraken in the 990's.41 that the Tyranids really make thier presence felt. Since the Hive Fleet dates mark the pivotal moment of the war (745 at the Battle of Macragge, 997 Ichar IV and Iyanden etc) I'm prepared to be lenient myself a decade or so in the case of Kraken.

After the back of Kraken was broken, the so-called Splinter fleets did indeed slip past the cordon towards the galactic core, but given the speed at which Hive Fleets move (Agonisingly slowly), this probably doesn't mean they've spread much further than the core (At least until Leviathan attacked across the whole breadth of the galaxy)

The 'Nids not making a big impact on a galactic scale doesn't mean much at the sector or planetary level.  They'll work just fine as a local menace.  I'm digging the warp gate, a concept dating back to 1st edition but not often put to use.  Vanguard elements of the 'Nid hordes make great enemies for PCs.  It isn't coincidence that genestealers and lictors have already been stated out in Creatures Anathema and they'll continue to useful.  Add in a space hulk, alien ruins, or the possible arrival of additional Tyranid elements if they aren't extinguished and the players have their hands full even if they are Deathwatch.

Point

No, really. It's a good point

Still can't say I'm entirely sold on this.  Especially after reading "The Killing Ground" to get a rough idea what RPing a Space Marine would be like.  But on the other hand, I like the sound of Jericho Reach, meeting the Tau at last, and the openings for Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader characters.

I like the setting idea, especially since I've been reading the Gaunts Ghost novels for a while, and generally like the 'crusade feel' if they can get that rolling.

The warp gate is an acceptable 'carrot on a stick' for the factions, but it won't feature as much except a rumour in my games most likely. My focus will be on the political impact of the DW in the crusade and around the crusade, as well as on telling epic stories in the 40K universe on a different scale than DH or RT

Psion said:

Who told you to read that detritus? If you want depth in your Marines, read Rynn's World (Parker, such a good book), the Heresy books, Iron Snakes (Abnett), or maybe some of the short stories in Heroes of the Space Marines. One of them was specifically about a Deathwatch team and it was decently written.

Do NOT read: The Blood Angel series by Swallow, The Ultramarine series by McNeil, or the Deathwatch series by Goto (I think).

BrotherAtrox said:

BA series do not do the chapter justice, and isn't entirely well written. The second ultramarine novel is acceptable.

I'd advice reading some of the Space Wolf novels for a view of one of the extremer chapters.

BrotherAtrox said:

The magical ability called random selection.  It's an intensive process involving standing in front of a section of my bookstore, only having one variable (Goto sucks,) and grabbing the first book with a neat cover on it.  And you're right, it does suck.  Only two Space Marines in it for the majority of the story and neither of them had enough characterization for me to keep them straight.

As for the rest, I'll pass.  I still have to read the first Hammer's Slammers omnibus, the last two books in the Vatta's War series, A Hymn Before Battle by John Ringo, and a whole mess of random novels from one author or another.  Don't have the time for more space knights.

To Psion - Really really bad luck with first book choice, that's almost as bad as grabbing the Souldrinker's Omnibus heh, Ultramarines or Space Boyscouts (always follow the manual!) are really as lackluster as you can get.  I mean really, what do you expect from a chapter who's greatest achievements include (but are not limited to) NOT arriving at the Battle of Terra in time to do anything, Getting their first company entirely eaten by tyranids, and losing the Damoclese Crusade?  The 2nd Ultra's book was ok, but only because of the Deathwatch Killteam in it and interaction with the Mortifactor's chapter which added some actual characterization. 

If you want Epic Space Marines, try the Ragnar series (very Beowulf-esque) and easy reads, 4th or 5th book even has some of the best interaction between 2 non-standard space marine chapters (won't add in any spoilers and whatnot).

Gav Thorpe's Angels of Darkness is another good one, pointing out the dilema any good GM can use in the upcoming Deathwatch RPG.  Again, no spoilers but it's far from space knights.

As much as I can't stand CS Goto, I did like his Deathwatch books, again, for the characters of the kill team, as well as the first Grey Knights book as it actually has a surprise ending.

Dan Abnett's Iron Snakes book was good, and different from the norm, though you can probably push this off as space knights heh.

The short story book Deathwing had some fine pieces in it too for space marines.

The Horus Heresy stuff is good too, and I'm told the books Iron Hands and the two Armaggedon books about Black Templars are entertaining.

BrotherHostower said:

Those are some pretty spurious criticisms as I'm sure you're aware.  I'm pretty ambivalent towards the Ultras, but I don't think any other Chapter would've fared much better in those situations.  They're no doubt a rather boring Chapter, but they're far from incompetent as you seem to be inferring. 

Yes this thread turned into a book competition on who's novels best depict the Space Marines. The thruth is they all do. GW has published them and the novels are all part of the fluff whether You like some in particular or not.  Some of them are realy, realy bad? Well too bad, read the ones You think are good or just stick with the DW main rolebook. Im sure there will be a whole CHAPTER (hi,hi :) ) on roleplaying Space Marines.

Mr. Watson: Thank You for the designer diary. I realy liked the idea of the Crusade (all this political intrigues as in Gaunt's Ghosts) and the independent agenda of Deathwatch. I think I'm going to buy the book. Keep sending us the updates. Happy Easter everyone. 

This could explain the presence of Lictors in calixis.

BrotherHostower said:

Yeah, with The Killing Ground, the character I actually liked reading about  the most was the planet itself.  Its ties to Chaos, the political turmoil sparked by rebellion and civil war (somewhat justified sedition even by the Imperium's draconic standards,)  the warp-fueled hauntings.  The others... I actually got annoyed when McNeil switched over to the two Ultramarines as they rarely did anything constructive until the climax.  A company psyker who knew the end was coming but was ignored because the head cheese was an idiot, an actually LIKEABLE commissiar (fancy meeting one of those,) the somewhat to-be-expected incompetent/sociopathic Imperial commander (Guardsmen novels have dozens of thoses,) the priest enjoying the excesses of his office but weighed down by the atrocities he witnessed....  And then we had Sergeant Blandfaced and Captain Blah, way to ruin an otherwise decent cast.

Well, thanks for the reading recommendations but only had enough time for one book to give me a rough idea what RPing a Space Marine would be like.  And considering that my comment spawned the same kind of (relatively) immature bickering I've gotten before when I was looking for a good 40k book; I see I still made the right decision picking a book at random even though... yeah, it was a mediocre read.  Going to have to work through the rest of my reading list (Ky Vatta is THE ultimate Rogue Trader) before I look at Black Library books again.

And to reiterate:  Still not entirely sold on this product.  That being said I like what I'm seeing for Jericho Reach so far.  I am almost as big of a Tau fanboy as I am a Guard one and both the Crusade and the warp gate relic sound like perfect opprotunities for Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader characters to find their ways into the region.

 The warp gate looks slightly eldaresque and we don't have much description on whether the term warp gate is literal or figurative so it could actually be an eldar gate.

Stable warp gates are part of 40k and the eldar own the most. Some just guard the material position of an entrance to a stable warp corridor others create a stable tunnel through warp space.

So, cliched or not, warp tunnels are part of 40k.

Hellebore