Atheosis said:

That would be its defence forces (every world there has to have a PDF, as they don't all count as Astartes homeworlds, and then there's local Guard regiments; beyond that, it's rare for an entire Chapter to be away from its home for any length of time; there might be six companies worth of marines scattered around the galaxy for various reasons, but that still leave four hundred or so marines to hold the fort). Astartes chapters don't, afterall, just exist to garrison their homeworld.

Atheosis said:

I agree with your position Ath, it's not impossible one or two Ultramarines turn up in Obscurus with DW teams ... however starting out with one fifth of all pc's in DW teams in the Jericho Reach campaign being Ultramar expats feels wrong.

A problem that would easily be solved by adding the Chapter stat table (it's not really a Chapter 'creation' table we need, just some basic rules for allocating skills and powers to pre-existing canonical Chapters.

I'd give up though, you're never going to win this argument here. 

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Of course they don't, but if too much of a Chapter is spread out too far across the galaxy and their homeworld comes under attack from an Ork Waaagh or a Tyranid Hive Fleet they won't be able to respond until it's too late. 

Adam France said:

Heh, there does seem to be a certain determination in all of this that can't be overcome.  Don't know if it's a deep abiding love for the Ultras or a blind faith in FFG design choices that leads to such an adamant stance in the face simple logic.   Either way, it does seem insurmountable.

Of course they don't, but if too much of a Chapter is spread out too far across the galaxy and their homeworld comes under attack from an Ork Waaagh or a Tyranid Hive Fleet they won't be able to respond until it's too late.

Well... what's the difference between having 400 Marines there and having 800 Marines there? They can only help in a war by decapitating the enemy force, which should be accomplishable for 400 of the Emperor's Finest. For mopping up, they'll need a PDF or IG anyway. Too high a concentration of Marines just invites orbital bombardment and similar measures.

Heh, there does seem to be a certain determination in all of this that can't be overcome. Don't know if it's a deep abiding love for the Ultras or a blind faith in FFG design choices that leads to such an adamant stance in the face simple logic. Either way, it does seem insurmountable.

And I take it you only argue here because you dislike all of FFG's design choices or abhor the smurfs, right? There's no chance that you might consider the idea from a factual side and come to your own personal conclusion that having several Ultramarines in Obscuros near Calixis is improbable, just like there's only fan-boy-ism to explain our stance.

If you don't like the Ultramarines to the extent you're willing to argue your way through 7~ pages that they shouldn't be there, your best bet is to stay as far away from 40k space marine "supplements" as possible because it's just going to get worse.

If you plan on playing Deathwatch, get used to the idea of the popular chapters being there. They're popular for a reason, blah blah, crap you've already heard with no substance, etc. I'm 90% certain FFG will have some rules on how to make your own chapter for DW and even if they don't, a competent grasp of the rules should be all you need to wing it yourself.

Atheosis said:

I dunno, you seem to mainly be objecting that they are including Ultramarines.  Ultramarines get called vanilla marines for a reason...as far as tabletop play is concerned, a large number of chapters organize their forces and use the same tactics as they do, right down to combat markings.  Putting them in the book makes sense from the standpoint that outside of a small percentage of chapters, they are called Codex chapters for a reason.  Putting in what is considered the baseline marines by most TT players I know makes sense, especially when you think of how deathwatch teams get formed...

Its not like the Inquisition waits for a threat to show up, then starts recruiting.  When they get enough members of a team together, they will begin training them (remember, all those nifty kill team weapons and such, its not your standard issue Godwyn pattern they use, plus learning to work cohesively, as a team, even though each has gone through different hypnotherapy/gene remodeling/implanting/training techniques.  Marines aren't (sorry, but it has to be said) dime a dozen Acolytes, much less Marines who get seconded to the Deathwatch, you don't treat them like disposable weapons.  So when a problem comes up, they are going to send the first team available, since, much like with the Grey Knights, theres /never/ enough to go around.  If that means sending an Ultramarine from the mighty fine and grand Ultima Segmentum to some backwater like Obscura Segmentum, the Ultramarine will simply thank the Emperor for the chance to do the Emperors will and set about his buisiness, whatever that may be.

Cifer said:

What's the difference between 400 Marines and 800 Marines?  Go ask the Flesh Tearers, I'm pretty sure it's rather significant.  In the case of the Ulramarines they have nine systems to protect so that's less than fifty per if they only have 400 on hand.  Beyond that, do you really think having more Marines available invites orbital bombardment?  I suppose it would if a Chapter was utterly idiotic and deployed everyone to the exact same location.  Pretty sure that's not how it would go though.

And yes my argument is partly based on my dislike of FFGs design choices regarding Chapter choices (I'm actually pretty neutral in my feelings for the Ultramarines as a Chapter).  It's also based on a certain amount of simple deduction based on my knowledge of how big the Imperium is and how small a Space Marine Chapter is.  What's yours based on again? 

Atheosis said:

I think his argument is based on the fact that this is a game, and it was all made up. All of your pseudo-" knowledge" is based on what other people made up, which means if tomorrow the GW heads want to say only Ultramarines and their offspring can be in the Deathwatch, guess what, that's how it is.

Also, you can’t have “simply deduction” about something we control. As GM I can base my game anywhere in the Warhammer galaxy, which means I can put my team together in any Segmentum, so the FFG guys, knowing this, decided to give us the power to have the most popular Marines as PC options, it’s a sound idea. I’m sure that’s not the only reason but I bet you money it was one of them. You don’t think they (who have worked on this for a long time) had almost this same argument? Probable a dozen times??

TCBC Freak said:

I already said there are good out-of-game reasons to include Ultramarines.  I never claimed otherwise.  The internal logic of the setting is where the problem arises.  Of course they can completely rewrite everything if they want (though they aren't going to), but based on what they've published the Ultramarines simply shouldn't be as likely to be encountered within Deathwatch as many other Chapters in the Segmentum Obscurus.  Internal logic is what this is all about as far as I'm concerned, and internal logic is important if a fictional setting is ever going to be truly immersive (at least for certain people).

Atheosis said:

It doesn't help that your logic is making certain assumptions.

Number one being that the Deathwatch setting is in the Segmentum Obscuras - which hasn't been stated. We know that the area detailed in the Deathwatch game is the Jericho Reach, but we don't know where that is, or what is going on there. That it's somewhere near the Calixis Sector and the Koronus Expanse are pure speculation on the part of the community...

My question is: Is this set in the same time period as DH/RT?  Because if it is there aren't a lot of Ultramarines left at this point.  Remember that timeline wise, this takes place shortly after the Battle of Macragge, which it took the smurfs more then a century to recover from. 

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Very true.  Seeing as the setting for RT is neighboring the Calixis Sector I assume the same will be done with DW.  FFG seems to want to encourage crossover between RT and DH so I think it's a good bet they'll continue that trend.  But you are completely correct that right now it remains an unknown.

Just use them as archetypes. Honestly - is it really that difficult?

Most Marines are like Ultramarines as most Marine Chapters are successors of the Ultramarines - so if you don't want to play as an actual Ultramarine, just play one of the many Chapters that came from them. Or even a non-Ultramarine Codex Chapter, like Imperial Fists or Crimson Fists. Ditto for other Chapters similar to the other ones - want to play as a Flesh Tearer? Fine! Play as a Blood Angel and if you must have extra rules to show how crazy you are, ask your GM.

People on this forum react as though the rules are both set in stone and any deviation will result in them being struck down by God himself. Oh, the rules say Ultramarine, therefore I must play as an Ultramarine.


Anyway, looking forward to what they say about Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Black Templars and especially the FFG Homebrew Chapter. :)

H.B.M.C. said:

What can I tell ya?  Gamers, especially gamers on internet forums, tend to over-react ... in all kinds of bizarre ways. 

And yes, I am looking forward to it as well.

But tell me, has it been confirmed that FFG is doing a "home-brew" Chapter?