Y'all Of Cthulhu said:

Over at the other forum that I frequent often (SomethingAwful.com), they have a whole topic hundreds of pages long called "grognards.txt" in which they find hilarious quotes from Gygax worshipers about how all modern RPGs suck.

The major point that is often repeated by a lot of these types of role players is that unlike D&D 2nd edition, PCs are too powerful and the players are having too much fun.

Also, character death should happen EVERY SESSION.

Anyway, enough of that.

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Ok then, here is the OP reporting his experience with the game and his system of choice: 

http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=261961&highlight=#261961

I especially like this quote: 

"Yeah it is too bad. I really wanted to like this game but sadly after playing SW for so long a few other games just become lackluster. Not to mention as of late if even the slightest ill word is spoken of the FFG communities beloved new game they jump all over you and start making wild accusations that your a bad GM and that your doing it all wrong. Oh well, I was probably just gonna savage it anyway."

I'm actually surprised that a Savage Worlds fan would be so hostile to another game.  I actually pictured him being a 4e guy (my apologies to 4e fans out there - teaches me not to stereotype).  To be honest, a Savage might have an issue with 3e, because SW lives for minis and terrain, and 3e has neither (out of the box).  'Splains much.

What the hell does he mean 'as of late' these forums have become hostile.  He registered YESTERDAY!!!

....and here is the OP over on the Savage Worlds boards as of November 10, 2009.  Just a few days before HE supposedly ran the demo:

lets see here....in no particular order:

1: Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2nd edition ( loved the clean up they did to 2nd ed. not a big fan of the new upcoming 3rd ed.)

2: Fate 3rd (don't like being tied to much to one single setting like Spirit of the Century but I love the re-visualized mechanics)

3: Earthdawn (so many fond memories from years gone by and it will always have a special place in my mind)

4: Classic Deadlands (it's technically not a Savage product but it's what got me to fall in love with Pinnacle in the first place)

5: Shadowrun (I've always liked the cyberpunk genre, but came back to fantasy gaming from time to time. It just seemed like a perfect fit)

His post can be found (it's on the 4th page) of the SW boards (just so folks don't think I'm putting words in his mouth): 

http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24874&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60

I'd be all for FFG deleting this thread as the OP had NO interest in running 3e with any sense of fairness or even wanting the system to succeed (if he even ran the demo at all).

He's as welcome to his opinion (and to express his opinion) as any other forum member, so long as it follows the rules and guidelines for posting conduct. In the coming days, as more and more people come to the forums to post about the game and the Emperor's Decree event, we will be seeing a wide and diverse fan community sharing their thoughts, feedback, and opinions.

I won't lock this thread, but I will use this as an opportunity to remind everyone to be mindful of the FFG forum posting guidelines. Forumites should refrain from making ad hominem attacks, or inflammatory trolling.

My apologies to all involved.

I expect that there will be negative reviews of the system (heck, I expect that I won't like everything as-written).  To me, it seemed like there were some inconsistencies with the tale as told... but I went too far.

Won't happen again...

What's especially funny is that he admits in his post here that he had trouble understanding the rules, his knowledge of the rules were "spotty at best", and even in his post he gets a lot of things wrong (calling basic action cards, "Tactics" cards, saying he couldn't run a 4th player, etc).  While he might be a decent GM at other times and with other games (like SW), straight from his mouth (well, hands cuz he's typing) he GM'd the demo poorly.  How can you think you did well as a GM, if you couldn't understand or remember the majority of the game rules? How can you think that the players (and strangers to boot) will enjoy the game if the GM doesn't, and if the GM doesn't understand the rules.  If I was handed a rulebook for a new game, different from most of the other games I've played before, and told to run the game in an hour, and if after reading the rulebook I had difficulty with the rules ... I wouldn't expect the game to play very well (I don't know if he had a time constraint to learn the rules or not).  The majority of that, though, is not a fault of the game system. The fault is with the GM, who is the storyteller, and the director of the game. If the GM can't handle the game rules and story well (for whatever reason), then it is very difficult for the players to have fun, and for the game to seem like fun.

It is very crucial that a GM

a) Enjoy the game they are running

b) Know the rules

c) Know the story/adventure

A breakdown of just one of those is bad, and more than one can lead to disaster.  It sounds like this guy didn't have either A or B, and I wouldn't be surprised if C was missing as well (due to A & B).  Personally, if I wasn't thinking I would like WFRP 3e, I would not have volunteered to run the demo.  I would have signed up to play instead, because GMing requires interest from the GM the most of all the group in order to have fun.  I don't want to try to run a game I don't think I'd like, nor play a game with a GM who doesn't like the game he's running.

More info on the Pinnacle forums

http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=262012#262012

"The demo does start this weekend, but I was instructed by the shop owner to run it on thursday. It's odd that they wanted me to run it on a weekday since most people would be at work and what not, but they said that to run it on anytime this weekend would have the demo conflict with a lot of other games that would be running since space at my flgs is limited.

I do like the game, don't get me wrong, but coming from a long history with Savage Worlds; I struggled a bit with it on a few spots during play. I'm a huge fan of Warhammer and wanted to see this be a big hit, but there are a ton of Dark Heresy fans where I go and they don't like change all that well."

Does this make sense?  Why would a store do this...it seems you are setting yourself up for failure.  That is if you believe him that this really happened.

The 'demo' (really more of a dry run) was done at

Hit Point Hobbies, Southern Pines, NC

Talked to an employee and the report the guy gave was confirmed by him (he played in it).  They are not planning on running anything this weekend but offer to let me by and look through the box or run something if I wanted to.

edited to get the right store in the post.

To be honest, just about ANY roleplaying game can become a muddy mess if the GM is ill prepared (in terms of knowledge of the rules) and none of the players know the rules either.

...Except for the Prince Valiant role playing game. Flipping coins was totally badass. We didn't care WHAT the rules were.

Incidentally, don't play that game if you're from Germany. The source material was from second world war era UK, so the bad guys are all Germanic and described in nasty ways.

Saint&Sinner said:

Well, keep in mind that in order to be one of the stores selected for the Pre-launch event, they had to submit demo times.  I doubt that FFG approved a Thursday demo.  So ... unless there was an emergency, which that fellow's comment didn't seem to agree with by saying it would conflict with other games, then the store deliberately lied to FFG (and everyone else) in order to get the Core Set and had no intention of running the demo when they said they would this weekend.  It does not reflect well on that store's management, IMO.

Regardless, let the man rant all he wants.  Just point people to his post, and our posts in response if need be. I think both sides stand for themselves. He was ill-prepared and didn't know the rules, and should probably not have GM'd the event, let alone started posting negative reviews of the game when most, if not all, of the issues were because of his lack of preparation.

Saint, I sincerely hope someone in that area actually spends some time learning the rules and then runs the demo again.  See if that employee will give the game another shot, for example, and see what his opinion of the game is afterwards.

dvang said:

IMO, both sides come out looking bad from this exchange. I'd just let the thread drop, personally.

Interesting.  Cynicalmisfit has edited his post over at the Pinnacle forum where he says the 'demo' was run at Hit Point Hobbies. Maybe he's realized he put his foot deeply in his mouth. LOL

http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25446&highlight=

"PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:46 pm Post subject:

[Post removed by author]

Last edited by CynicalMisfit on Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:19 pm; edited 1 time in total"

Even after what you said Jay...im not sorry about it and im not going to be....he was bashing the game after clearly stateing that he didnt use and GM skills in the game....very...very dumb...if he took the time to read the, which he said he barely did, and read the GM book.....there would be no problems....im not sorry and i dont care.......if i offend someone....grow up and deal with it...