Got a question about damage.

Is all units that was applied enough damage destroyed immidetly after damage appliation?

Yesterday we played a game Orks vs Dwarfs. There was combat and we assigned damage. Then was damage appliation phase, damage was applied and after damage was applied he played Stubborn Refusal (Action: move all damage from one target unit to another target unit in any players coresponding zone) to transfer all damage just applied to his unit to my other unit, so in fact he dalt me additional damage (all that I gave him, he transfered to me). I said it is impossible, because I understand, that if damage is applied, unit is destroyed and this damage can't be transfered.

But maybe this is possible and Units are not destroyed after the very last actions playing phase (when damage is already applied to units)? This would change game totaly in situations like this.

Anyone can anwser (Preferably official anwser ;)?

You're unlikely to get an official answer unless you directly email the developer.

Anyway I see it like this:

According to page 7 a unit which has damage equal to its current HP is immediately placed in the discard pile. Now if the card entering the discard pile went on the stack then Stubborn Refusal (And Valkia) could move the damage before this action resolves. However page 15 mentions that only actions labelled with the Action keyword can be responded to. Also on page 14 it notes that actions can only be taken after damage is resolved and units are immediately removed before actions take place.

Yeah. I noted those pages in Rulebook. I tried to manage this question myself, however it can be judged in both ways.

In my oppinion such action is impossible, cause units are destroyed after damage is applied. But... heh

Shame that no one officialy answers those questions here:(

I honestly don't see how it can be interpreted any other way. In Magic where almost everything goes on the stack then yeah that would be how it worked but in W:I it explicitly says that the stack only applies to actions that are labelled explicitly as 'Action'. A unit being discarded through damange is not an Action. There really is no room for interpretation.

Ok. Let's assume that this is correct.

Thanks for the answer:)

 Just taking the relevant section from the rulebook (page 13, relevant sections in bold):

--------------------------------------------------------------

Both players now apply the assigned damage to the cards to which it has been assigned. At this point, effects like Toughness (see Toughness, page 16) kick in and cancel damage before it reaches the target. Any damage tokens thus cancelled are returned to the pool in the centre of the play area. Any unit that has as many (or more) damage tokens on it as it has hit points is destroyed (and discarded).

[Skip section on damage to capitals]

After all damage has been applied, both players have the opportunity to take actions (including playing tactic cards). Once both players have passed consecutively, the battlefield phase is over.

--------------------------------------------------------------

You don't get to play actions until after you've removed the destroyed units.

I was just about to say that. Yes, no actions until after the units that have been assigned damage equal to or greater than their hit points is applied and then placed into the discard pile. That is official as ChaosChild just illustrated in the rules. There is no other interpretation of that section.

"I am the Prince of Dorne. Men seek my favor."

So now you have three different page references in the rulebook that back up that units cannot be saved once they're hitting the discard pile. I hope your friend can accept all that evidence. ;)

dormouse said:

and now you can go and reread rules.

After all damage has been assigned, both players have the opportunity to take actions (including playing tactic cards). Once both players have passed
consecutively, play proceeds to the next step.

Maybe you confused steeps Assign and Apply damage? Or friend of original poster wanted play Refusal after assign but before apply steep.

Bubi said:

Seems pretty clear to me; he wanted to play Stubborn Refusal after applying damage, not after assigning it. And all the rules that TheForsakenOne and I have quoted state that you can't do that.

Besides, if you played Stubborn Refusal after assigning damage but before applying it than it wouldn't have the same effect. It only moves damage that has already been applied, so it wouldn't move the damage from the current combat.

Thanks for your answers guys!

Seems I was right, and such action is impossible.

What's most important, now i know what is the timing of different things happening at the end of battle phase. 

And this will affect several common situations and probably questions from other players like:

- Can heal effect tactic card save my unit from being destroyed? - No. Cause they will be destroyed before you have the chance to heal them.

Penek said:

I'm going to pretend there was no condescension in this reply and that it was because I was not as clear as I could have been...
The rules state after damage is assigned each player gets to take actions. I said once damage that HAS been assigned (as in past tense, that section has already been done)  there is no more opportunity to respond/take actions when the damage has been applied and when they hit the discard pile.

Penek said:

As my esteemed colleague ChaosChild said, Stubborn Refusal cannot be used to move damage that has not yet been applied. If you read the section in entirety that you quoted from you would see that damage assigned is not even placed on the units or capitol it is placed "near" them. Until the damage has been applied no damage has been received yet and therefor no damage can be moved, canceled, or otherwise affected if the effect calls for a target unit that is has been damaged.

This means the only possible way Stubborn Refusal can prevent a unit from being killed and sent to the discard pile before damage is applied is if the Target Unit already has damaged from a previous Battle Phase and by moving that damage to another target it lowers the total amount of damage that it would have when all damage is applied to below its hit point total.

This section of the rules is actually pretty clear if you read it straight through. If you are looking for it to support a position you have already assumed to be correct then it can understandably get a little confusing, especially if you read it in pieces or just a small section.

"I am the Prince of Dorne. Men seek my favor."

Your friend is entirely CORRECT (Edit: see last sentence).

The Battlefield phase has 5 steps:

1) Declare Target

2) Declare Attackers

3) Declare Defenders

4) Assign Damage (place it next to cards)

<--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Action ("pause" referred to below)

5) Apply Damage (place on cards, potentially killing them)

You can use Actions after EVERY step. That means you can use Stubborn Refusal after step 4, before step 5 begins.

Of course, after APPLYING (step 5) your friend may have missed the boat if he was trying to do it then.

EDITED yet again for clarity: The confusion appears to stem from the distinction between Assigning and Applying. I think it is obvious that Assigning is simply a "pause" to permit exactly this sort of action. Otherwise, there would be no need to have an Action between Assigning and Applying... both those steps could have been merged into one. That "pause" is there to play such cards.

Hurdoc said:

Okay now sight where in the rules it actually allows for this. Until you can give at least a quote from the rules to substantiate this, it is merely your opinion. I say the "pause" and opportunity for actions/responses in the Battle phase after damage is assigned is for cards like Grudge Thrower Assault which read, "Play during combat after damage as been assigned. Action: Destroy one target attacking unit." If you are going to insist on using "logic" instead of the rules then answer how damage can be moved from one unit to another when no damage has actually been placed on the target unit yet? Logic dictates that such damage can only be moved after it has been applied since the rules clearly state "Damage tokens are placed near the card(s) to which the damage is being assigned, and if any damage reaches the capital, damage tokens are placed next to the attacked section, but not yet applied," and therefor there is no damage on the target unit to be moved.

Now if you don't like this interpretation, I suggest you send it to Nate (or if you do like it just to be safe), but as far as I can see it from what is written in the rules this is the most correct ruling with the information we have.

"I am the Prince of Dorne. Men seek my favor."

Frankly, I'm surprised there could be any other interpretation. Your interpretation removes a major gameplay mechanic from the game and gimps it severely. Do I get an apology when I'm proven right?

 Absolutely, but first you have to explain how you move damage from one unit to another before it has been applied to the first unit.