What most surprises me here is that people find it perfectly acceptable that they think the company's spread too thin! I don't know if that is the case, but if it is, it's not a great idea really. Product quality will be down, and so will the number of releases. I'm not saying that anyone should look at these games as loss leaders or loss makers, but as most of the work is done by freelancers anyway, all it really does need is a line manger who is willing to get new supplements up and running and then edit them. Unless sales have collapsed, this shouldn't be an overly massive expense!

As far as I know, many of the freelancers are looking for more work, but haven't been contacted for some time, same goes for some groups of the playtesters.

IanBear said:

I am glad that IanBear has raised this point as I was afraid to raise it. Unless FFG have got a completely new set of freelancers and playtesters on the go or even if they have taken everything in house again, it is impossible to see, after The Enemy within comes out, anything new apart from PODS for at least a year on normal timescales. If Star Wars is taking up so much of the staff's time, you would hope that freelancers would be asked to fill the gap. It doesn't seem to be happening so the question is, is anybody working on WFRP at all, apart from overseeing the final physical production of the Enemy Within? The delay on that could perhaps also be down to lack of staff perhaps.

Who knows but I have a feeling that we are not going to see much, if anything, more for WFRP before the license come due in two years time. Sad to say, but that is what the indicators show. It will have to be the fams who will keep WFRP going. Maybe the odd entry on the forum here occassionally will show FFG that WFRP is not dead but has just migrated away from FFG, assuming they care.

Himmelweiss said:

I think what people are losing sight of here is the WFRP history… 1st ed died… 2nd ed died… 3rd ed is going to die sooner or later. And the reason games die is solely because the cost of production starts to exceed sales revenue. It's clear even within this forum that the new game has very much split opinion, and D&D4 clearly shows what happens to your margins if you produce a product that only part of your consumer base likes.

We have to face it that although Warhammer may be a popular game, the RPG just isn't and hasn't been for many years (maybe never was?)

As for a complete game, be careful what you wish for. By the end of its life, West End Games' Torg was a complete game. It was a bloated, over-blown, over-complex, contradictory mess with dozens of supplements, adventures, expansions etc.. The same will happen with WFRP over time, as cards start to contradict earlier cards, power creep starts to become a problem: it's the RPG equivalent of entropy, an inevitable descent into chaos (strangely appropriate really!). So I'd rather take a game like WFRP, which is mature and reasonably well tested, it has the expansions it needs to cover the main bases without starting to feel saggy and over complex. Although maybe it's getting there.

And finally, for scenarios, I direct you towards the fascinating Designers & Dragons by Shannon Appelcline (hardback, published by Mongoose, not cheap but a cracking read). A clear trend throughout RPG history is that games and supplements make money, scenarios don't. Which is why pretty much the only game to produce dozens and dozens of scenarios over many years is D&D, in its various incarnations. (oh, Torg kinda did it too, see where that ended up ;-)

phild said:

i agree that Designers and Dragons is a great book.  Has a cool layout that had me jumping back and forth to the companies I was most interested in.

If I were to make a wager, I would say that we will see one more (maybe two) more products in this line.  I expect to see perhaps a sequel to Enemy Within dealing with certain world shattering events we know of.   I would love to see them do an elf expansion but I think that may be just hopeful thinking.

Now, another possibility is this.  They may let the line end with The Enemy Within.  Then let the line sit until renewal time.  If they renewed, it would be most likely a chance for them to revamp with a new edition.  I'm not a fan of this but after two years of no products in the line, a new edition would generate sales.  If the new star wars game does well, I would expect it to follow a similar format.

On the other hand, if they didn't plan to renew, they could do a last hurrah and print up additional hard bound books that compounded the material from all the expansions (actions, careers, talents, etc).  I don't recall if it was them or Green Ronin that did something similar with career compendium but I believe the book sold well.

IanBear said:

I'm sure there's someone out there for whom moving to Minnesota to line-manage WFRP for $27K/year would be a dream job, but remember, the last line manager suffered a heart attack at 38, the guy before him swore off WFRP afterwards, and the guy before him burnt out within 2 years…just saying.

phild said:

The real value of scenarios can't be measured in sales revenues alone though. Scenarios shape casual players' impressions of the game, and help them decide whether or not to buy into the product line. Granted, a bad scenario can also hurt the product line by failing to showcase the system/setting favourably, so it's a risky venture. But I don't think D&D, CoC or WFRP would have become legacy RPGs if they weren't supported with good scenarios.

Herr Arnulfe said:

Oh, I totally agree! But some people have done this. I think the guy that took over Dark Heresy was essentially a long time fan writer and playtester? Despite the fact I'd love to write for the line more, I'd never want the boss' job! Endless abuse from fans, regardless of quality, managing the demands of said fans, GW and FFG and a miriad of freelance writers all together. No thanks. But still, it needs to be done by someone for a line to survive!

IanBear said:

Does 40KRP have a dedicated line manager currently? One of the special guest freelancers at GenCon did seem to be a "senior writer" (not sure if he liases with GW though). Several GW staff writers have also worked on the 40KRP lines recently, IIRC, so maybe GW is taking a more direct approach with 40K. If FFG was to hire an off-site, part-time WFRP line developer, someone like Dave Allen would be a good candidate, having previously worked for GW himself, assuming he'd actually be interested in spending his days reviewing proposals, editing and planning instead of writing.

Herr Arnulfe said:

I think it takes a REALLY bad scenario to hurt a line.  We're talking like late-TSR, Lorraine Williams-bad quality.  Most GMs can turn any scenario into something more passable than a kidney stone.

Scenarios always help a line.  Nobody's going to remember ordinary crunch products.  imo. 

jh

Emirikol said:

I think that's very true. When we talk about games, we usually talk about the adventures, published or otherwise, not the rules. Sometimes we fondly remember spectacularly good or bad dice rolls, but usually only when they made a difference to a character or the story. We talk fondly about The Enemy Within, The Keep on the Borderlands, Masks of Nyarlathotep, The Great Pendragon Campaign, or sourcebooks like Marienburg: Sold down the River or Delta Green. Lots of people like rules and special powers, but rule-based supplements don't seem become remembered as much-loved classics. (Anyone, feel free to pitch in with examples of popular rules classics.) 

However.

Scenarios and campaigns are apparently unprofitable, especially for the amount of work that goes into them. It's that old problem of scenarios only selling to GMs, the minority group in the RPG market. Books packed with exciting new powers sell to players. Under the circumstances, I think FFG have approached the problem as best it can. What would have helped would have been more support for the fans who could have provided scenarios at no cost. FFG might be the problem here, but I am more inclined to think GW just doesn't want fans using its IP and sharing their own twists and idea. I doubt FFG has that much say in the matter.

Cheers

Sparrow

James Sparrow said:

That's why they need to solicit for scenario contests.  FFG dropped the ultra-successful scenario contest in the past (hence why I'm propping it up this year.)  I disagree 100% that GW is worried about IP being shared through that, as they were the direct sponsor of the old contest in 2e.

It costs FFG nothing more than a hamburger to sponsor scenario contest. They just don't have the willpower to care.  There's no leadership.

If GW was worried about IP, they'd us shut down Liber Fanatica.

jh

Emirikol said:

Actually, if a scenario is bad enough then it won't get played at all, which is better IMO than a scenario which looks promising but ends up being "meh". There are too many games out these to waste time playing mediocre scenarios. As a GM, I get annoyed if I spend the time to read a scenario, organize the players, and then end up wasting everyone's time on mediocrity. When a game falls flat, it's usually 75% the scenario's fault and 25% the system's fault in my experience (disregarding player and GM issues). Now, if a product line has dozens of great scenarios available then a couple of duds in the mix won't hurt, but in general I think published scenarios need to go big or go home.

Emirikol said:

GW are a bit weird and inconsistent.

Cheers

Sparrow

On a related note some eagle eyed person noticed this…

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/847161/dice-packs-no-longer-being-stocked-at-ffg

Dice no longer stocked: store.fantasyflightgames.com/productdetails.cfm

The Enemy Within seems to have been just stretched to the end of the year.  I'm prophesying that they will continue to put out the occasional pod and stretch 1-2 more 'boxes' out over the next two years.  This is pure conjecture however and based loosely on the Kentucky Fried Chicken I had tonight when I noticed that the mashed potatoes looked a lot like a double-tailed comet, whilst th e copious amounts of chicken fry-grease only managed to stain two drops onto my pants.

jh